When Winter took over at the Outer Gates [Spoilers all, including the DFARPG]

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How can it be partly Oberon's fault if they haven't spoken since Hastings? Shakespeare is centuries after that. I was wondering about that point too--specifically---they had a love triangle when neither of them were communicating with each other at all!

I assumed Billy Shakes was simply borrowing from events that had happened long before.  My guess is that it happened before either of them were Queens, and were still Ladies, if not un-mantled teenage Changelings.

The former gatekeeper was the father of the author of Dante's Divine Comedy--Alighiero di Bellincione, as revealed in the most recent RPG book.

Damn.  So dude was already in the wizardly equivalent of Old Age even /before/ he became Gatekeeper.  That puts Rashid kicking around as a top tier Wizard in 731-738 AD (Lovecraft said 738, Derleth said 731) but not becoming Gatekeeper until 4-5 centuries later at least, which is already older than any other living wizard we know of.

[Cozarkian]

With regard to Titania/Mab not speaking. They are twins. Mab had twins. Seems likely Titania had twins. Perhaps o e didn't survive Hastings?

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With regard to Titania/Mab not speaking. They are twins. Mab had twins. Seems likely Titania had twins. Perhaps o e didn't survive Hastings?

Titania had twins?  As in Aurora had a sister?  Who-wha?!?  That will be very significant for my prediction-crafting...

[CloakedDestiny]

I've also wondered about the previous Winter Ladies--especially since we have a gaping period of around ~800 years where Maeve probably wasn't in that seat, and moreover Mab was busy being Queen. "In Mab's time," is a bit vague of a descriptor for when the last Winter Lady died (Mab's time as Queen? Mab's time in existence?) but I'm going to toss out a wild guess: Was it, perhaps, another of Titania's daughters? Mab had twins, it would be oddly symmetrical if Titania did as well...and that like Sarissa leaving her mother by chance to be Lady of an opposite court...so did Titania's other daughter. Perhaps killed by a Starborn?

Quoting myself here, since I had a very similar idea. There's no direct evidence that Titania had twins, but consider this: People who are twins are also genetically more likely to have twins themselves. Titania and Mab were twins. With fae themes of Balance and Symmetry being so important, it does seem very possible that both Titania and Mab had the same number of daughters---and even twins.

[Cozarkian]

Titania had twins?  As in Aurora had a sister?  Who-wha?!?  That will be very significant for my prediction-crafting...

I said likely. That is just a guess based on the symmetry typically found in the courts.

Aldo, Aurora's desire to end mortal suffering could be because Aurora's twin chose humanity and was killed.

[Second Aristh]

Not sure it would strictly be nessesary, in that Hecate was already a Tripple-Goddess, and so might have already been a power shared across multiple hosts.  I agree that they definitely seem to have consolidated Power into the one set (or rather two sets) of queens, but there would have already been a power of three sort of Base form in place without needing a One Greek Goddess per Queenly role to make it happen.

Hecate wasn't always considered a triple goddess, though, only in later periods.  Within the DF, that might be a clue pointing to Hecate being subsumed into the Queens, or it may not be relevant.  Either way, I'm not proposing each Queen being derived from a single Greek source (in fact I think it was several).  There were several Greek goddess triads in the maiden/mother/crone style (e.g. Rhea/Demeter/Persephone or Rhea/Hera/Hebe or Clotho/Lachesis/Atropos, and you could throw in Gaia to either of the first two lines to get the promotion style transfer that occurs with the Queens).  I'm saying that the absorption of the goddesses could have also absorbed a grudge.  If so, the emergence of a grudge in Hastings would be circumstantial evidence of ascending to become Queen.

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I said likely. That is just a guess based on the symmetry typically found in the courts.

Aldo, Aurora's desire to end mortal suffering could be because Aurora's twin chose humanity and was killed.

That would actually be really interesting.  I do hope we eventually find out more about wha twas going through her mind during all that.  I dunno, maybe Sarissa finds her diary or something. 

Hecate wasn't always considered a triple goddess, though, only in later periods.  Within the DF, that might be a clue pointing to Hecate being subsumed into the Queens, or it may not be relevant.  Either way, I'm not proposing each Queen being derived from a single Greek source (in fact I think it was several).  There were several Greek goddess triads in the maiden/mother/crone style (e.g. Rhea/Demeter/Persephone or Rhea/Hera/Hebe or Clotho/Lachesis/Atropos, and you could throw in Gaia to either of the first two lines to get the promotion style transfer that occurs with the Queens).  I'm saying that the absorption of the goddesses could have also absorbed a grudge.  If so, the emergence of a grudge in Hastings would be circumstantial evidence of ascending to become Queen.

Ah, gotcha

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SO I find the bit about "Time Immemorial" being an actual, specific timeframe rather than the poetic language I (and apparently Harry) always thought it was. 

So for an interesting reference, the only other times that phrase is used are How long the White Council has had Edinburgh for HQ, and how long the Red King has had Chitzen Itza:

The Hidden Halls of Edinburgh were the redoubt and fortress of the White Council of Wizardry
from time immemorial. Well, actually, that last bit isn’t true. It’s been our headquarters for a little
under five hundred years.

and

The Red King spoke, and though he was more than two hun­dred feet away, I heard him clear­ly. Ala­maya lis­tened and bowed. “My lord replies that this is a holy time and holy ground to our peo­ple, and has been from time im­memo­ri­al. If you do not wish to re­spect the tra­di­tions of our peo­ple, he in­vites you to re­turn to­mor­row night. Un­for­tu­nate­ly, he can make no promis­es about the fate of his newest chat­tel should you choose to do so.”

[knnn]

Random aside:

My impression has always been that there were always a bunch of Faerie Courts, but that Mab/Titania "went corporate" when they took up the Mantle of protecting the Outer Gates, which is why they appear to be so much more powerful than the other Sidhe Courts we've seen (e.g. the one from Curses).

Crunch Crunch Crunch....

And then there's the WoJ that Hades/Satan is (to paraphrase) "a CEO of a corporation", (maybe when compared to Hades), and I wonder if there's a connection.

[Quantus]

Random aside:

My impression has always been that there were always a bunch of Faerie Courts, but that Mab/Titania "went corporate" when they took up the Mantle of protecting the Outer Gates, which is why they appear to be so much more powerful than the other Sidhe Courts we've seen (e.g. the one from Curses).

More or less my thought as well.  The whole point per Mama Summer is "Power has Purpose" so I have to think that becoming the Gate Guardians came with a whole lot of Power that they didnt have previously (including the ability to Draft the Wyldefae, methinks).  Given that the Dragons used to be in charge of the turning of the Seasons of the world, it seems reasonable to me that part of it is a more fundamental connection to mortal Reality. 

And then there's the WoJ that Hades/Satan is (to paraphrase) "a CEO of a corporation", (maybe when compared to Hades), and I wonder if there's a connection.

To clarify, that's a WOJ that both Hades and Satan are similar in that they run their domains in much the same fashioned as a CEO.  NOT that they are the same person, correct?

[CloakedDestiny]

The WoJ needs clarification, because there seems to be a bit of confusion here: It says that Hades is like the CEO of his own small company, while Satan is the Officer of a multinational conglomerate.

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As he was quickly signing books, I figured I wouldn't be able to get a long answer out of him, so I shot for a yes no question - "Does Satan rule hell like Hades rules his place?" was what I tried to ask, but as soon as I said "Does Satan rule hell-" he frowned and said no. But then he heard the rest of my question and elaborated. I think I remember his answer verbatim: "Hades is like the CEO of his own small company, sort of. Satan is more like an officer of a sprawling multinational conglomerate - the hierarchy of hell operates exactly like a corporation, obviously" By 'an officer', I assume he meant CEO, what with being a fallen archangel and all, but the word he used was officer.

Personally though, I'm more convinced by the idea that the Fae courts were once united.

[Lawgiver]

The main question/comment/idea I have relates to this –

Fact:  Mab and Titania aren't the original "Queens" Mab and Titania:
Quote from: 2015 Dragoncon

I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous.  They're a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

When you said, at the beginning

I've long embraced the theory that the Winter Court's assumption of Outer Gate duty was concurrent with Mab's ascension.

are you referring to the current Mab or the original?

The current disposition of the various fae royalty comes from a compilation of a number of older Powers into a single pile which was then divided out into the six-part format we currently see.  When is it proposed that this happened and most importantly … why?  What use a Mother, Queen and Lady for Summer and Winter, with the level of power and responsibility they currently have, before – possibly long before – they ever took over as Guardians?  I’m not sure it fits well.

I generally agree it’s likely the Nordics were the previous Guardians, but it’s not necessarily a sure thing.  I’ve argued before that if they were, it’s likely that the Jotans were the actual Guardians of the Gates because they have much the same warlike disposition as the current Winter Fae, while Odin and company were more likely in the position Summer now holds, able to get involved with mortals and keeping them safe from the Jotans the way Summer keeps us safe from Winter.

What use would the Nordics have had to have such strong potential contenders for their position as the Fae courts in their current format?  It just doesn’t feel right.  I think the Fae are older than we’ve been thinking and that, though the current Mab and Titania got their current roles around the time of Hastings, it’s likely that the Fae Courts have been Guardians much longer than that.  How long I couldn't say.

[Quantus]

The main question/comment/idea I have relates to this –

When you said, at the beginning are you referring to the current Mab or the original?

The current disposition of the various fae royalty comes from a compilation of a number of older Powers into a single pile which was then divided out into the six-part format we currently see.  When is it proposed that this happened and most importantly … why?  What use a Mother, Queen and Lady for Summer and Winter, with the level of power and responsibility they currently have, before – possibly long before – they ever took over as Guardians?  I’m not sure it fits well.

fwiw, Summer and Winter as courts technically might have predated the ascention to Gate Guardians and the consolidation of Powers that you describe.  They'd have simply been another pair of Wyldfae courts without the sort of qualified-supremacy we see now, but they might have been around, and even had a Lady and Queen it not the full triplet-form we see (or all three, who knows).  One Clue that always pushed me that way was the fact that Mother Winter is the only Mother Winter ever, but she is also The Queen That Was by definition, thus methinks she had to be a queen of some proto-winter Court that predates the ascension. 

[Lawgiver]

fwiw, Summer and Winter as courts technically might have predated the ascention to Gate Guardians and the consolidation of Powers that you describe.  They'd have simply been another pair of Wyldfae courts without the sort of qualified-supremacy we see now, but they might have been around, and even had a Lady and Queen it not the full triplet-form we see (or all three, who knows).  One Clue that always pushed me that way was the fact that Mother Winter is the only Mother Winter ever, but she is also The Queen That Was by definition, thus methinks she had to be a queen of some proto-winter Court that predates the ascension.

Seems reasonable except for one thing.  The Mother doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen prior to being established in that position.  At first inception they needed someone/thing to install in the position.  Doesn't mean that person/being was in any position of power/authority that could be called "Queen".  Sort of like creating a new kingdom, some guy takes power and calls himself king, - or gets appointed king by his battle companions... doesn't mean he had to be a prince before hand.  Nit picky, I understand, but...

[CloakedDestiny]

I think you're missing the point--the positions are explicitly referred to as: The Queen that Was, the Queen that Is and the Queen that Will Be. Why would the Mother be the Queen that Was if she never, well, Was? I agree that she doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen to be the original Mother, but this represents an in-universe oddity if there is no explanation for why the Queens are referred to in this way in Summer Knight. There's a qualitative difference between that and the relationship of a Prince to a King in a Kingdom's hierarchy.