When Winter took over at the Outer Gates [Spoilers all, including the DFARPG]

[Serack]

I've long embraced the theory that the Winter Court's assumption of Outer Gate duty was concurrent with Mab's ascension.  However, I just spent 20 minutes looking through my old posts and couldn't come up with anything recent where I discussed it, and there's someone on Reddit commenting on some info from the new Dresden Files Accelerated RPG book preview (available only to kickstarter backers) and how it backs the theory up.

So I've decided to compose a topic that brings together the body of evidence and speculation that supports this theory.  It's not a certainty, or it wouldn't be worth going through the trouble pointing out the evidence, but I do believe it is a very strong theory.  So lets get this party started.

Fact:  Winter wasn't always in charge of the Outer Gates, and there were others previously guarding it.

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There are always Outsiders trying to tear their way in.  There are always forces in place to stop them.  In our age, it is the task of Winter to defend these boundaries, with the help of certain others to support them.  Think of them as . . . an immune system for the mortal world.

I seem to remember that the Outer Gates are currently being guarded by Winter, but it was insinuated that they are just its current defenders. Does that mean that there were guardians before them or that they are the last of those guardians?
Both.

(Side theory)  The Aesir were likely a previous guardian force at the gates.  IMO, the passing of this torch is one of reasons why it was necessary for Odin to take on the Kringle mantle.  There was probably enmity earned in Mab's taking over, but also a need for some level of politically cordial relations between the former and current heads of the Gate Guardians during the transition.

Fact:  Mab and Titania aren't the original "Queens" Mab and Titania:

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I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous.  They're a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

What do we know about when Mab and Titania ascended?
Well, I think it happened around "Hastings."  That is, the 1066 "Battle of Hastings" but we don't flat out know.  First, here are the main bits of info we have implying as much.

How old is the current Mab anyways?

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How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.

Is Nic older than Mab?
He is.

There's also the Hastings references below:

What we know about Hastings being significant to Winter/the Fae:

"I have not exchanged words with my sister since before Hastings."

How long has the White Council had the Blackstaff
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.

This is widely believed to be when Mother Winter "Lost her walking stick."  Jim doesn't flat out confirm this, but has acknowledged that plenty of people on the internet have figured out the origin of the Blackstaff correctly. Which sounds a lot like the kind of thing that could be associated with "The last time things got awful in the wizard world."

The Sidhe haven't always been as they are now  That is, the current state of Summer and Winter Fae doesn't necessarily reflect how they used to be.

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sapph42: Could the Summer Court bestow the Mantle of the Summer Knight (is that capitalization all correct?) on someone who held the Mantle of the Winter Knight? What would holding both Mantles do to a person? If it is possible, and is not fatal, how would such a person resolve their conflicting obligations? Would they still have obligations if they lived, but no longer held the Mantle(s)?
Jim: 2) That's a fascinating question. I think they /could/, but it would do horrible things to the head of the person who got it. Reuniting two things that were meant to be divided just cannot be good for the person standing around when it happens... 

To me, the word "reuniting" implies that the power was at one point united.

The Sidhe were created by outside agents for a purpose.  (My spin on the below WoJ is that they already existed in some form, and were... appropriated and reshaped to purpose)

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You've previously said that the Sidhe and Mab came from origins like Toot Toot and kind of took on responsibility and grew.  You've also said that every single Fae have come from mortal origins like changelings and Scions and stuff.  Could you reconcile these two apparently contradictory origins?
I could but I won't *sing song* I'm not gonna tell you.*  The Sidhe were created for a reason though.  They were created specifically by certain agents who no longer had as much influence on the world as they once did.  I've hinted at that in some previous books and I'll leave it at that and I'll leave the rest to you.

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"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her power?  To... to protect the borders?"
"To protect you all from the Outsiders, mortal."
"Then why does Titania have hers?" I asked?
"To protect all of you from Mab."
"Titania cannot match Mab's forces, but she can drag Mab personally into oblivion with her--and Mab knows it.  Titania is the check to her power, the balance."

Relevant mini-theory derived from the above 3 quotes:  Although the Summer and Winter Courts were probably already a dichotomy, taking up stewardship of the Guardianship of the Outer Gates and the associated terrible power and responsibility is probably the wedge that drove Mab and Titania apart such that Titania no longer can even speak with her sister, and probably instigating the creation of the two Knight mantles that were "meant to be divided." 

What ties the two events together? (Mab's ascension, and Winter's assuming stewardship over the Outer Gates)
What evidence do we have these two major events were concurrent?

We have a WoJ that adds up to our Mab being the one taking over at the Outer Gates.  I remember the older WoJ referenced here, but I've lost it unfortunately.  If you use contorted logic with respect to phrasing it is possible to suppose that the "she" and "her" pronouns refer to the mantles held by more than one Mab since we have WoJ that favors like this are to the mantle not the person holding it, but that's very convoluted and unlikely.

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At a Con you attended recently, you mentioned that the reason Mab owes favors to some unsavory characters is due to debts she accrued when the Winter Fey first assumed the duty of manning the Wall. 
Regarding that favor, it was a situation where Mab needed to be in two places at once and couldn’t.  So Anduriel loaned her Nicodemus to step into one of the places she couldn’t be.  Man has since learned better than that and now she has somebody that will step in for her when she needs to be in two places at once.  Which is why the Leanansidhe has got so much power and generally shows up whenever Mab isn’t there.  If you’ll notice in the books, the Leanansidhe and Mab very rarely show up in the same place at the same time.  That’s because Leanansidhe is covering things that Mab should be doing, while Mab is wasting her time on Harry Dresden.  And vice versa.

Finally, there is this interesting analysis of a line from the new Dresden Files Accelerated RPG book provided by redditor Anubissama

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So I have been looking through the new Dresden Files Accelerated RPG which is written "in world" like the previous books, but this time from the point of view of Ivy (the Archive).
And besides some world expanding infos like who was the Gatekeeper before Rashid, and what the Gates are made out off, we get this titbit:

The reason may be found in Winter’s reason for being, which is this: they stand guard at the Outer Gates, and have done so for time immemorial.

In the segment about the Winter Court and there violent nature, now this raised my eyebrows. We have a WoJ that the Guard at the Gates changes, so it can't mean "times immemorial" in the poetic sense "since always", but the Archive wouldn't be so imprecise, would it?
If we check the phrase "Time Immemorial" we find out that it is an actual legal term. In the human world (at least the part influence by British Law) it means since the 6th of July 1189 the beginning of the reign of King Richard I.
So transferring this to Fairy terms, does it mean that the Fairies have been only Guarding the Gates since Mab ascension to Queen?
According to WoJ, Mab is Queen for around a thousand years, some speculate that her ascension happen at the Battle of Hastings on the 14th October 1066, the last time her and Titania spoke directly, some other speculate on historic events that took place on 31 October, with Bob being present hence why he knows that Immortals are vulnerable on Halloween.
I think we can assume that the "Time Immemorial" references the ascension of a Winter Queen and that this Queen was Mab, since her takeover was so hectic that she needed to indebt herself to Anduriel to help with the transition, sounds to me like Winter took up some new duties with Mab as Queen.
PS I know that the Dresden Files RPG book aren't strictly canon but from what I know they are at least proof read by Butcher, so speculating on the new information given in them, is in my opinion, warranted.

So in conclusion, the above evidence seems to support these positions that together mean the two events were contemporary to each other:

• Our Mab is the one who took over at the gates
• "Hastings" is when the White Council obtained the Blackstaff, which is probably Mother Winter's walking stick and is probably "The last time things got awful in the wizard world."  That is, when Mab and Titania's predecessors died and they ascended.
• Mab's position as defender of the gates is what defines the purpose of Titania's power, and is the likely wedge responsible for Titania no longer speaking with her "since Hastings"

[CloakedDestiny]

There's a mild kink to be worked out here: If Mab has been Mab for better than a thousand years, and she ascended around the Battle of Hastings...well, a thousand years haven't passed yet since Hastings. Should we take this arbitrary number of 1000+ years loosely? Otherwise the numbers just don't work and we cannot say that the Mantles changed hands at this time.

I've always been interested as to what could have caused the divide between Mab and Titania, twin sisters, on a personal level. Ascending to the the Winter & Summer thrones itself doesn't feel like it's enough for enmity between them. The Ladies communicated frequently as seen with Lily and Maeve and the Mothers seem to share a body of knowledge (perhaps intellectus). Bit of a gap here between the Queens. The last Queens actually died, and Titania holds her role specifically to protect mortals from Mab--and this leads me to believe that, in conjunction with the changing of the Outer-Gate guard situation--that there is something buried beneath the surface.

I've also wondered about the previous Winter Ladies--especially since we have a gaping period of around ~800 years where Maeve probably wasn't in that seat, and moreover Mab was busy being Queen. "In Mab's time," is a bit vague of a descriptor for when the last Winter Lady died (Mab's time as Queen? Mab's time in existence?) but I'm going to toss out a wild guess: Was it, perhaps, another of Titania's daughters? Mab had twins, it would be oddly symmetrical if Titania did as well...and that like Sarissa leaving her mother by chance to be Lady of an opposite court...so did Titania's other daughter. Perhaps killed by a Starborn?

[Mira]

  Mab says she hasn't talked to her sister since the Battle of Hastings, it could mean only that..  It could be that they talked before and were Queens, had big fight  at the Battle and held a grudge  ever since...  Both have demonstrated that they are capable of it, and what's a several hundred year grudge with no speaking if you are immortal?

[Anubissama]

That Anubissama Chap sounds like a smart guy, we should listen to him more ^_^

[namkcas]

Just an add on thought here...

So, we always talk about Mother Winter's Walking Stick as the being's stick not the position/title/mantle's stick.  It would seem to me that the easiest way to get the stick would be during a transition of mothers.  That would imply that the current mothers were replaced at the time of Hastings, thus leading to the promotion of Mab, etc. 

[anzu]

Hastings' importance to the Courts never made much sense to me.  Historically, it marked the end of the reign of Anglo-Saxon kings, replacing them with the Norman line.  You'd think that the ascension of the Sidhe and the declension of the Norse would coincide with the rise of Anglo/Celtic/Briton power at the expense of Norse power.  Instead, Hastings saw the elevation of the Normans (a people descended from the Norse) over the native Anglo-Saxon rulers.

Maybe the Sidhe weren't fans of the Anglo-Saxon reign, due to their ties to promoting Christianity across Britain.  Or maybe the fall of the native rulers was due to the Sidhe being distracted elsewhere.

The Battle of Clontarf in 1014 seems a much more suitable ascension point for the Sidhe, and has parallels to what theoretically happened to the Queens.  It was a battle between the native Irish and the Viking/Norse conquerors/settlers/raiders that had been harassing the Irish for a couple centuries.  The battle ended with an Irish victory, successfully repelling the Vikings from the land.  But the victory came at a high cost, with the High King and his sons all dying in battle, leaving the land divided under various rulers.

This transfer of power away from Norse Vikings would parallel their retreat from the Gates.  And if both reigning Sidhe Queens died, then it would propel the Courts into just as much turmoil as the Irish themselves were.

[Ulfgeir]

Just an add on thought here...

So, we always talk about Mother Winter's Walking Stick as the being's stick not the position/title/mantle's stick.  It would seem to me that the easiest way to get the stick would be during a transition of mothers.  That would imply that the current mothers were replaced at the time of Hastings, thus leading to the promotion of Mab, etc.

There is a WoJ if I remember correctly, that says Mother Winter is the original one, and that Mother Summer has only changed once, and that was due to the original one abdicating.

/Ulfgeir

[CloakedDestiny]

1. the mothers - how does a queen become a mother? like after a thousand yrs, old winter dies and mab becomes the new mother?

Essentially abdication.  The previous mother wearies of her duty and moves along.  There's been one new Mother Summer during recorded human history.  Mother Winter has never retired.

[Con]

The Sidhe haven't always been as they are now  That is, the current state of Summer and Winter Fae doesn't necessarily reflect how they used to be.

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To me, the word "reuniting" implies that the power was at one point united.

Ok I have a hard copy of ghost story so it took me ten minutes to find this quote so you better appreciate it.

There's more substantial evidence that the Sidhe were once united in text.

'Lot of interbreeding there,' Bob said. Back in the old, old, old days. Before the Sidhe Wars"
......
Even before my time, but I've heard all kinds of stories. The Daoine Sidhe, the Tuatha, the Fomor, the Tylwyth Teg, the Shen. Epic alliances, epic betrayals, epic battles, epic weddings, epic sex

The Shen are from Chinese Mythology by the way.

P.S. I searched for 40 minutes for a Bombshells excerpt that had Leansidhe's explanation of the Fomor to Molly, but pretty sure that confirms they used to be united.

The Sidhe were created by outside agents for a purpose.  (My spin on the below WoJ is that they already existed in some form, and were... appropriated and reshaped to purpose)

Agreed as evidenced by the fact that former Irish, Welsh and Scottish gods are now Fae. We also have evidence that Greek mythology was converted at least partially into Fae as well. Hecate, Bob's exclamation of Nymphs and Satyrs in Small Favor, the Centaur in Summer Knight.

Relevant mini-theory derived from the above 3 quotes:  Although the Summer and Winter Courts were probably already a dichotomy, taking up stewardship of the Guardianship of the Outer Gates and the associated terrible power and responsibility is probably the wedge that drove Mab and Titania apart such that Titania no longer can even speak with her sister, and probably instigating the creation of the two Knight mantles that were "meant to be divided." 

I Disagree partially and spin off my own theory. I think it's just that the Summer and Winter Ladies are supposed to be the emissaries between each others courts as evidenced by the fact that it was Lilly who was able to talk to Maeve she wouldn't be able to do that if it was against her purview to do so. The Summer and Winter Queens however are too proud, powerful, resentful of each other to ever be in their nature to speak to each other. It'd also be against nature the two high monarchs being in the same room the very essence of winter and summer each a Tropical Tornado and an Ice Age Blizzard. There'd be an explosion of some sort all that power together. At least not without one paying lip service to the other like Odin has to do as Kringle to Mab. Which neither Queen are willing to do. I agree that something caused resentment at the Battle of Hastings but I'm just not sure it was the Guardianship of the Outer Gates. At least that's not directly the cause of the resentment. I think it funner to think that Mab schemed or conspired to kill the Summer and Winter Queens at least Mab definitely profited from their deaths the last time a Starborn was running around. If Bob is to be believed and theirs also the theory that Winter Ladies always want to succeed their Queen.

So in conclusion, the above evidence seems to support these positions that together mean the two events were contemporary to each other:

• Our Mab is the one who took over at the gates
• "Hastings" is when the White Council obtained the Blackstaff, which is probably Mother Winter's walking stick and is probably "The last time things got awful in the wizard world."  That is, when Mab and Titania's predecessors died and they ascended.
• Mab's position as defender of the gates is what defines the purpose of Titania's power, and is the likely wedge responsible for Titania no longer speaking with her "since Hastings"

1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Partially agreed.

Oh and does anyone know wher I can get an online copy of the Accelerated Rpg

[Second Aristh]

Nice job collecting everything Serack. 

As an extension, it might also be worthwhile to incorporate the idea of the Queens sharing the role of Hecate.  One thing I've been toying around with that multiple Queens or proto-Queens were involved with the Persephone story.  I think it's a given that multiple Greek figures/mantles were absorbed into the Queens.  We know already the Fates and Hecate, but there are probably more and probably not all were Greek.  We also know Hades "abducted" Persephone from Demeter while Hecate "helped" Demeter find her daughter.  Based on domains of influence, it certainly seems like Demeter is a good fit for a previous Titania.  Likewise, a previous Summer Lady fits with Persephone.  If we take a Mab centered Hecate, then it makes sense for there to be animosity between a Mab and a Titania coming from a Hecate/Demeter grudge.  Our Mab ascending to Queen at Hastings (assuming that our Titania ascended at the same time or before) and the fact that they broke off communications could be partially mantle driven.

[Mith]

The problem with the idea of Titania being Demeter is that the "abduction" of Persephone is well before Hastings for that to personal.

[Second Aristh]

The problem with the idea of Titania being Demeter is that the "abduction" of Persephone is well before Hastings for that to personal.

Depends on which Titania you're talking about. 

We know from Harry that mantles play with the emotions and instincts of their vessels.  It could very well still be personal for the mantles involved even though vessels have changed.

[Quantus]

Not sure it would strictly be nessesary, in that Hecate was already a Tripple-Goddess, and so might have already been a power shared across multiple hosts.  I agree that they definitely seem to have consolidated Power into the one set (or rather two sets) of queens, but there would have already been a power of three sort of Base form in place without needing a One Greek Goddess per Queenly role to make it happen.

[Quantus]

Regarding the OP:

I expect the wedge between Mab and Titania is at least partly Oberon's fault, rather than a purely political falling out.  Imagine the poor sap, caught in a love triangle between twin sisters that just happen to also be demigod forces of nature. 

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Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.

I also suspect that it was not /just/ the Aesir that were previous Gate Guardian's.  I think it's more likely that many if not all of the "human pantheons" of that general age (the Aesir/Vanir and the Grecoroman, probably the Egyptian and Hindu as well as others.   My general idea is that it was the Dragons way back in the Day, then passed to the Human Pantheons (which is how Humanity usurped the balance of the world).  It's been my general theory that as Humanity began expanding and globalizing their cultures to some extent (as well as other factors) the pantheons that held Power (and who's will could sway Fate) began to decline in Power, they decided to transfer the Power and Responsibility of the Wall to beings that had more direct and physical connections to the Mortal World.  So they gathered up every Nature spirit they could beg, bargain, or con into it and made the two Fae Courts.  The idea is that while Faith in a given religion or Pnatheon might wax and wane, Humanity will always believe in and respect Nature's Power and existence (Industrial Age notwithstanding) and so it would be insulated from some of the variances in Faith that might have plagued pantheons.

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6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast.  It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos.  He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment.  He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession.  There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.

PS. Side question:  Who was Gatekeeper before Rashid?  What are the Gates made out of??  You cant tease me like that!

[CloakedDestiny]

How can it be partly Oberon's fault if they haven't spoken since Hastings? Shakespeare is centuries after that. I was wondering about that point too--specifically---they had a love triangle when neither of them were communicating with each other at all!

The former gatekeeper was the father of the author of Dante's Divine Comedy--Alighiero di Bellincione, as revealed in the most recent RPG book.