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[Taran]

How is sponsored magic out of their jurisdiction?

It's not your magic, it's your sponsor's and your magic has to be in line with the sponsor.  Like wielding Death Magic because you are sponsored by the god of the dead.  You wouldn't get Lawbreaker for killing people with magic because that's part of his portfolio and you are carrying out his agenda.  Most people play the game that the sponsor protects you from the spiritual corruption since it's not your own magic.

I'm not sure where this is 100% proof.  I think it's just a common interpretation of sponsored magic.

[Haru]

How is sponsored magic out of their jurisdiction?

For one, the reason Taran describes. A sponsor could simply shield your mind from corruption.

But when it comes to the Wardens, they would not only have to deal with you, but with your sponsor as well. Worst case, this would start trouble in the politics of the supernatural community. They could go through the channels of the unseelie accords, but if it's not a mortal wizard, they can't claim jurisdiction over them. The supernatural world is big on stuff like this.
In fact, in some cases, you could interpret a wielder of sponsored magic as the sword of the sponsor. He is no more liable for his actions than a sword would be, at least where supernatural politics are concerned.

But this doesn't mean they are immune to it all. They could well take a lawbreaker stunt without the Wardens being able to touch them.

[blackstaff67]

For one, the reason Taran describes. A sponsor could simply shield your mind from corruption.

But when it comes to the Wardens, they would not only have to deal with you, but with your sponsor as well. Worst case, this would start trouble in the politics of the supernatural community. They could go through the channels of the unseelie accords, but if it's not a mortal wizard, they can't claim jurisdiction over them. The supernatural world is big on stuff like this.
In fact, in some cases, you could interpret a wielder of sponsored magic as the sword of the sponsor. He is no more liable for his actions than a sword would be, at least where supernatural politics are concerned.

But this doesn't mean they are immune to it all. They could well take a lawbreaker stunt without the Wardens being able to touch them.

At your tables perhaps the Wardens act that way.  Any Warden that sees someone using magic to take a life, be it Outsider, Fomorian, Hellfire, Summer/Winter, etc., is STILL going to see a murderer and will closely question that caster, assuming he doesn't kill the caster right off the bat just to make sure.  YES, the Sponsor may shield them from the cosmic hit of Lawbreaker; no, they will not go to bat to protect the idiot so crass as to use it to kill or otherwise break the Seven Laws.

That's how I'd rule at my table, anyway. 

[Taran]

Not every sponsor-wielding person is protected by the accords either.  Wardens will happily kill/stop anyone threatening human lives.

[Quantus]

At your tables perhaps the Wardens act that way.  Any Warden that sees someone using magic to take a life, be it Outsider, Fomorian, Hellfire, Summer/Winter, etc., is STILL going to see a murderer and will closely question that caster, assuming he doesn't kill the caster right off the bat just to make sure.  YES, the Sponsor my shield them from the cosmic hit of Lawbreaker; no, they will not go to bat to protect the idiot so crass as to use it to kill or otherwise break the Seven Laws.

That's how I'd rule at my table, anyway.

How would you view the loophole we've seen in the novels with Binder?  He's known to summon creatures and then order them to kill, but that bare degree of separation keeps him clear of the Wardens Justice (if not off their radar).

[blackstaff67]

How would you view the loophole we've seen in the novels with Binder?  He's known to summon creatures and then order them to kill, but that bare degree of separation keeps him clear of the Wardens Justice (if not off their radar).

Simple.  The moment Binder ordered the creatures to break the Laws, Lawbreaker.  Might have it already but for an editing error.

(click to show/hide)

Hence Morgan's reaction to his presence in Turncoat (not just because Binder was hunting for him, as I see it).

[Haru]

At your tables perhaps the Wardens act that way.  Any Warden that sees someone using magic to take a life, be it Outsider, Fomorian, Hellfire, Summer/Winter, etc., is STILL going to see a murderer and will closely question that caster, assuming he doesn't kill the caster right off the bat just to make sure.  YES, the Sponsor may shield them from the cosmic hit of Lawbreaker; no, they will not go to bat to protect the idiot so crass as to use it to kill or otherwise break the Seven Laws.

That's how I'd rule at my table, anyway.

Oh, absolutely. In the heat of the moment, things can get messy very fast. A Warden is bound to react that way, when he sees someone murder with magic. But in other situations, where it isn't quite as immediate, things can get political. Not a lot of wardens are going to like this, but what else is new?

[Quantus]

Simple.  The moment Binder ordered the creatures to break the Laws, Lawbreaker.  Might have it already but for an editing error.

(click to show/hide)

Hence Morgan's reaction to his presence in Turncoat (not just because Binder was hunting for him, as I see it).

Not disagreeing with the Lawbreaker, but there's some grey area between Lawbreaker and instant execution by a warden.  Harry said in TC that Binder has always "careful not to break any of the Laws of Magic, so the Wardens haven’t ever been able to take him down."  Give that one of the things he apparently gets hired for is as an instant army capable of "trigger work" it seems that he's found such a loophole.  In his case, nobody dies by magic, they die by guns fired by creatures that were summoned with Magic. As I understand it such a thing still ought to cause the twisting of the soul side of things, but make it past the secular WC legality side.

Thoughts?

[Blackmako]

I thought the role of the summer/winter knight was in part to kill humans? Harry references historical figures of terror that were Winter Knights. Slade was very definitely a ruthless and brutal murderer. The White Council does not represent as the defenders of humanity for the Accords. So I don't see how Wardens could/dare to police the knights as they work Seelie/Unseelie magic. You really think a Winter Knight who did not start as a wizard would hesitate to kill with magic? Harry certainly blew an ogre to bits in a horrific fashion to make an example as a knight, implying winter influence.

Just as Lawbreaker caps Wizards, the Sponsor should be sending thematic compels that are from dangerous to inconvenient. If memory serves Harry almost raped due to the predatory influence of Winter. Game mechanics wise I'd see that as a huge compel. Give me a fate point or get a fate point for indulging Winter. I see it as a GM obligation to throw narrative curveballs at sponsored magic. The Magic urges use to its agenda. The knights who play in my game go through constant grief due to the fae in the form of inner compels or blatant sponsor saying do this or else. The way I see it a Sponsor would eyeball when a knight is near mentally consequenced out to push its will.

[Quantus]

I thought the role of the summer/winter knight was in part to kill humans? Harry references historical figures of terror that were Winter Knights. Slade was very definitely a ruthless and brutal murderer. The White Council does not represent as the defenders of humanity for the Accords. So I don't see how Wardens could/dare to police the knights as they work Seelie/Unseelie magic. You really think a Winter Knight who did not start as a wizard would hesitate to kill with magic? Harry certainly blew an ogre to bits in a horrific fashion to make an example as a knight, implying winter influence.

They dont, as a legal matter, police the actions of the Knights are outside their jurisdiction, in the same way Molly is now outside their reach.  But then Harry says he may well be the first Knight that was a wizard first and who maintains membership, which puts him into an awkward grey area.

Also, the Council is in no way "The Defender's of Humanity for the Accords".  They are a nation under the accords, and take it upon themselves to police mortals' use of magic per the 7 Laws. But they have no rights or claims to Humanity as a whole.  The only reason they were able spin it in WN was because he walked in just as the Wamps were bragging about how the mortals they were killing was direct, if circuitous, attack on the White Council.  They dont even have, in normal circumstances, claim the practitioners that are not in their membership (which was a key point in SK when the Merlin wanted to strip him of standing)

[rientelfon]

Quick Question and Easy Answer I Hope:

Say a Wizard casts a Darkness Spell using Spirit Magic, is there any defense for this? From my understanding it would be manipulating the actual light in the room so there is no resistance to this spell that I can find.

[blackstaff67]

Not disagreeing with the Lawbreaker, but there's some grey area between Lawbreaker and instant execution by a warden.  Harry said in TC that Binder has always "careful not to break any of the Laws of Magic, so the Wardens haven’t ever been able to take him down."  Give that one of the things he apparently gets hired for is as an instant army capable of "trigger work" it seems that he's found such a loophole.  In his case, nobody dies by magic, they die by guns fired by creatures that were summoned with Magic. As I understand it such a thing still ought to cause the twisting of the soul side of things, but make it past the secular WC legality side.

Thoughts?

Touche.  That said, so much for a simple answer.    Perhaps this should be a sticky thread?

[blackstaff67]

Not disagreeing with the Lawbreaker, but there's some grey area between Lawbreaker and instant execution by a warden.  Harry said in TC that Binder has always "careful not to break any of the Laws of Magic, so the Wardens haven’t ever been able to take him down."  Give that one of the things he apparently gets hired for is as an instant army capable of "trigger work" it seems that he's found such a loophole.  In his case, nobody dies by magic, they die by guns fired by creatures that were summoned with Magic. As I understand it such a thing still ought to cause the twisting of the soul side of things, but make it past the secular WC legality side.

Thoughts?

Touche.   Look, I admit to running a somewhat conservative game regarding LoM (but without playing "Gotcha!"  Players and I agree, we hate that).  Barring further data from Evil Hat or the novels themselves, I'm sticking with it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Quick Question and Easy Answer I Hope:

Say a Wizard casts a Darkness Spell using Spirit Magic, is there any defense for this? From my understanding it would be manipulating the actual light in the room so there is no resistance to this spell that I can find.

Sounds like a block or a maneuver to create a scene aspect. Either way, there's probably no defense. But that's not because it's a special kind of spell, just because blocks and scene maneuvers aren't defended against.

In some situations people can "defend" against attempts to put an Aspect on yourself or the scene by shooting at you or otherwise interfering with you. The relevant rules here are on page 207 of Your Story.

[Taran]

Quick Question and Easy Answer I Hope:

Say a Wizard casts a Darkness Spell using Spirit Magic, is there any defense for this? From my understanding it would be manipulating the actual light in the room so there is no resistance to this spell that I can find.

It really depends how the maneuver is being created and It depends what is creating the light in the room.  Is it electricity?  Just hex it.
Is it natural light streaming in from outside?  That will be considerably harder to remove with a spirit evocation.
Is it a torch?  That's pretty easy.

It's a scene aspect, so the difficulty depends on what you are trying to do.  No-one can really resist it except in the case where another character has control of the light.  Maybe someone is holding a large flash-light and you use spirit to smash the bulb.  The character holding the flashlight could dodge the maneuver.

I might let someone resist a maneuver if they are in a position to hinder the wizard themselves.  maybe they have the wizard in an "ARM LOCK".  This could make it difficult to cast.

edit:
ninja'd by sanctaphrax