Author Topic: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]  (Read 36819 times)

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2016, 03:17:18 AM »
Meh.  Harry's old duster was around for a lot, and it didn't make a difference.  If an item magically imbued didn't get a bonus for being around magic, it doesn't seem likely that the motorcycle would.

The only thing the motorcycle has going for it is the fact that it's been in the hunt, and presumably was masked both times.  If so, it might have gained a little bit of a resistance to hex, but as the Hunt magic isn't mortal, it might have no effect.

Offline Nomad

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2016, 06:05:08 PM »
Griffyn, mate... you really lack in the "techno romance" department.
Certain machines... just bend the rules of probability and casuality even in the mundane real life (See older Toyota Hilux, 286/386/486 computers, F4 Phantom II, UH-1 Iroquois,  Yamaha YBR 125 ( :D ) and so on and so forth) and others have a mystique about them (Choppers, Cheap Steel Asian-American Defence Implements, Bullwhips) , although unexplainable.

It isn't hard to think that a trusted iron steed that already possesses both of such qualities, could/would become much more in the "magic is real" of the Dresdenverse.
Waiting eagerly for the day when Arry will enchant a fluorescent tube lamp and use it as a lightsaber.

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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2016, 07:48:16 PM »
Griffyn, mate... you really lack in the "techno romance" department.
Certain machines... just bend the rules of probability and casuality even in the mundane real life (See older Toyota Hilux, 286/386/486 computers, F4 Phantom II, UH-1 Iroquois,  Yamaha YBR 125 ( :D ) and so on and so forth) and others have a mystique about them (Choppers, Cheap Steel Asian-American Defence Implements, Bullwhips) , although unexplainable.

It isn't hard to think that a trusted iron steed that already possesses both of such qualities, could/would become much more in the "magic is real" of the Dresdenverse.
By that idea, the Beetle should have benefited from a bonus.  It escaped flaming monkey poo, helped slay a chlorofiend controlled by a Summer Lady, survived mold demons, was exposed to who knows how many tracking spells, was imbued be Harry's purpose countless times as he raced to people's aid, and had direct contact with wizard blood, foo dog drool, and Mister's hairs.

But that didn't keep it from breaking down regularly.

Offline Nomad

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2016, 05:34:45 AM »
Ah, but the little beetle has always been the donkey, compared to Murphy's trusted steed. A bit of an ass if you will :).
It's breakdowns remind me of a mule refusing to budge after it came too close the danger, again and extorting additional carrots and care rather than the Call of Cthulhu rpg-esque deaths of other, more modern vehicles.
Waiting eagerly for the day when Arry will enchant a fluorescent tube lamp and use it as a lightsaber.

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Magically speaking he may be a thug, but tactically speaking...he's the cast of looney tunes after a few bong hits.

Offline toodeep

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2016, 09:06:08 PM »
I think TTH will come back to this period and do some of these actions if not others as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if he is part of the defense of AT. 

But you asked who might have been involved?  It comes down to method.  One thing Harry said about time travel very early on was that it would involve enormous power because of the need to create your mass (or something to that effect), but now he knows a way around that - just sending his spirit back.  So the obvious assistant is Mort.  As I recall there is a disconnect in the series about Mort's house.  In one book he's in a house, in the next he's in a condo, and in the next he's back in the house.  I thought there was a WoJ implying that this was not a mistake - it implies there was a temporal change having to do with Mort.  I haven't looked at what books these gliches were in, might it might support the theory.

The problem with this is that he then needs somewhere to be during the day, and way to get to the house during the day.  Possession?  Any chance that his brother was acting so strange because he was possessed by Harry?

Finally, there are all kinds of interesting things that might have happened at the same time.  When was the last time we saw Sandra Marling in the book?  Maybe the reason we haven't seen her since is because she threw down with TTH as some point...

Offline Serack

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2016, 11:34:39 PM »
This is one of the more interesting new WoJ from yesterday.  It's only fitting that the most British character in the DV so far is associated with time magic.  In hindsight, we could have probably guessed this based off Doctor Who, Big Ben, and Jim's sense of irony. 
So, based on this I'm going to make a WAG that Chandler will be Harry's companion/sidekick in the time travel book (crosses fingers in the hopes that it's titled Second Chance).  While we're at it, it seems that Chandler as the British prisoner in Demonreach is a valid possibility as well if Chandler needed to wait out some time shenanigans.

Am I the only one that didn't realize that Chandler was part of the young faction of wardens?

Wait, you can combine those two theories and make Harry's TT companion British Prisoner TT Chandler...  Which is an awesome theory!  (Edit:  And probably what you were trying to say)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:11:19 AM by Serack »
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Offline Ragnar__Danneskjold

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2016, 12:00:03 AM »
A common trope with Time Travel stories is the bitter jaded hero/sympathetic villain goes back in time to prevent some cataclysm from happening after identifying the key point in the past that he needs to "fix" in order to prevent things for happening the way they did. The only problem is that this usually is what ends up causing, at least in part, the events in the first place, which is why things still did happen the way they did. See any number of Star Trek/Star Gate/other sci fi shows for a myriad of examples of this. Efforts to change the past create the exact past that they are trying to change.

So a possible theory is that TTH is going back in time to prevent Molly from getting kidnapped and this becoming the WL. Perhaps she goes bad in the future and he thinks that he can change it to prevent her from getting kidnapped (or dare I say rescued) so that she never gets primed to become WL and thus doesn't go bad. The only thing is we already know (and he should too) that the efforts to prevent the events of PG fail. The locked theater does nothing. The fetches and other magical barriers don't work, and things do happen exactly the way they do and she does end up becoming WL.

I would wager that this could even be applied to other mysterious events that we've seen happen. The drive by car event, fixing LC, etc. TTH goes back in time in order to try to fix something, but his efforts to fix it are actually what caused things to happen exactly the way they did. Maybe someone (Mab, Nic, etc) lies* to him and tells him that he can go back in time to fix things, only they know that he needs to go back in time, not to fix it, but to ensure that the events unfold the way they really did.

*Or cleverly tells the truth but in such a way to give Harry the wrong impression.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:03:13 AM by Ragnar__Danneskjold »
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Offline raidem

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2016, 12:15:53 AM »
There is WOJ I just looked at today that suggests we will find out who fixed LC in book 20 or so. 

Though that was from 2011 but it highly suggets some connection to Denarians like Serack suggested since book 20 follows the multiple of 5 format.
Quote
In what book will we find out who fixed Little Chicago?
Probably not until 19 or 20.  Since I'm a lazy writer, probably 20. I think that would be good for the last of the case files, so I'll hold off on that one.

Quote
Wait, you can combine those two theories and make Harry's TT companion British Prisoner TT Chandler...  Which is an awesome theory!  (Edit:  And probably what you were trying to say)
I've also suggested in the past that Chandler's note to Harry in Changes coupled with Luccio's was that there were two messages sent to two different Harry's.  One Harry, other IdHarry.  I also wonder if perhaps there was information that Chandler got via time divination that he provided to Harry.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 12:37:34 AM by raidem »
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WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline a3dfiend

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2016, 07:49:25 PM »
Has anyone ever compiled a list of all the stuff that is "off" in PG? Just a bullet point list of the things that dont add up to the rest of the series or dont line up with the events of the big picture?
After reading the series so many times, I kind of think that PG doesnt take place in the same timeline/reality as the rest of the series. Just to name one thing really quick: Why does the sign in Mac's say "Accorded Neutral Ground" instead of the "Accorded Neutral Territory" like all of the other books post GP?
Maybe Ill try to set up a list like that and post it on its own thread after reading it again...
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Offline raidem

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2016, 07:51:16 PM »
I actually had a topic I wrote exactly on that sign of Mac's.  Let me see if I have it still or if it got shredded.
It got shredded.  To recreate the list I gathered simply look for instances of "accorded neutral" in the books, then post those occurrences.

There is also a thread on inconsistencies in the Dresden Files.  It is somewhere in the reference collection.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 07:54:49 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline vultur

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2016, 05:44:50 AM »
Third: The Calvin and Hobbes book! Granted, this actually takes place in the third chapter of the following book, Small Favor, but seems like it should count.

I think that was a hint about the hobs that show up later in SmF. It's mysterious on its own (I'm thinking Lea or Mab passing through thresholds since they've got benign intentions... could be angelic though) but I don't think related to the PG mysteries except in the sense that somebody got through Harry's threshold and did subtle stuff.

Offline Lawgiver

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2016, 04:49:15 PM »
Just reading through this and had to make note on this as I read it (sorry if it's already mentioned further on).

My guess is Mab was paying off a debt, not completing a deal she was forced to make.
JB has said that Mab is in the process of balancing her ledger and that, as of SG, she had worked her way down to Nicodemus.  Truth to tell, though, the dialogue within SG clearly shows us that her debt was to Nic’s Fallen, Anduriel – with Nic as the actor/minion who did the deed just as Harry will be Mab's actor/minion to repay the debt.  That would seem to mean the payoff at AT would have to have been to a more Powerful entity than Anduriel, an Angel.  The time difference between PG and SG is about eight years so there’s no telling how Powerful an entity she’d be paying back that much earlier on.
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Offline Lawgiver

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2016, 04:56:12 PM »
Oh yah!  I'd actually already concluded that it was likely that Thomas was there when LC was fixed.  I'm more inclined to say they had a few conversations, but I'm reluctant to think they interacted more than that
I have a little trouble with Thomas being a knowing accomplice to TTH during PG.  The main reason is his reaction to Harry's "death".  If he knew that TTH was coming from the future, why was he so badly bummed all the way through GS... and still had a beef with Harry on his boat during CD?  His knowledge that Harry had come from the past should have precluded such an emotional response; he'd have known Harry wasn't really dead.

I find it more likely that TTH got into the basement with LC through the same Way that took him out to Lea's Garden once before.  Lea subs for Mab when Mab is busy elsewhere.  But Mab would be busy right at AT for the attack so Lea would be free to take Harry to that Garden and let Harry through to fiddle around in the lab.  Thomas hears stuff going on down there - when no one else is supposed to be home - and finds he can't get the trap door open (possibly Lea keeping it shut or she puts him to sleep as she did with Susan/Martin in Changes).  That would be enough to rattle him and put him on the defensive - armed and dangerous when Harry comes back.

/sigh
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Offline Wizardofnelson

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2016, 08:04:10 PM »
Quote
Captain Kudzu” was working under Mab’s orders.  Having been deemed “sufficient” and since she ordered someone to bring Molly in. (This tilts my theorizing away from the theories that he was a nemesis agent, since Mab was actively trying to recover from nemfection in her ranks when she assigned him.  But that's not a given.)
now see, I've never thought these were mutually exclusive.*upon farther thought, it's my belief mab intentionally puts things in harrys sphere of existence knowing full well they may or probly are Nfected. Besides this, we know Cat Sith. But what purpose did mab have putting the eldest of his race to work as harrys batman when any other could have worked? I can't remember the difference between watsonian and doyalist but considering that precise character becomes a threat in the very same book, I find it highly likely she knew and wanted them to cross paths* Mab sent the fetches to do just that, fetch. But did she? The captain says he has worked for the queen of whatever since before human memeory, but if before human memory consigns one to oblivion, how is this possible? He referred to the original. This is a case of the embalance causing MW to release that which was contained beyond intentionally, to preserve a balance when necassary(at the time mab had the WK locked up... Locking up an element of the winter court that is supposed to have freedom of Will was why the fetches were sent at all I think, otherwise the winter knight could do) Also, as the fetches are one of the only fairy creatures who possess no body on the mortal plain, they lack that 'soul' or choice related to being part mortal, they were set up that way to eat the Nfection that can be perceived in PG that Molly hasn't had to deal with since, cause they ate that Nfected bit of soul right before Harry got to the top of the tower. Case  in point, mouse's reaction to Molly when N is potentially present, or fearbringer specifically. The whole explaination for how the fetches are summoned shows
1 anything on par with... And I can't remember if the lady qualifies or not... The queens can Breach the NN from the other side,
2 beacons are a must, having something to guide oneself.
Might add a few more after I go back over...
But from what we now know of outsiders and N, there is a fearbringer, Molly was set up to use fear, to become a fearbringer.... They made her into the beacon for the outsider to find his way back, add on the mortal magic of change and yea. Same being in both PG and CD. Pretty sure both the scarecrow and FB both had a moment of recognition with Harry too.
Simple to think one of the outsiders allies goals is to reintroduce these things as part of reality. Ties into the idea Molly's 'fearbringing' helped form the mask FB actually uses to exist in CD. It's like the mirror, it mirrors things incompletely and not entirely accurately but FB has the same form and function of Scarecrow. Like a shadow/mirror... Also, scarecrow in batman is called the master of fear and was actually 'something' crane(can't remember his first name off of top of head, edit in later!) who madrigals identity pays homage to as Darby crane. Also connected to ichabod crane from sleepy hollow, a story that had his own fearbringer of sorts. So all these elements connect, right down to Harry being the metaphorical and literal batman lol.
I haven't gone over all this in a couple years, nobody seemed to notice when I did then though... So if it seems incomplete or you have questions, then shoot. I might not have the right answer, but chances are I got something...
Quote
2)  Summon the Murk during the Phage attacks
A, the cold nature of the Murk wards in these attacks screams Winter
B, Harry does briefly sense something familiar about the magic involved when he reaches out towards it

Negative:  It's hard to imagine Harry submitting to casting a spell that would facilitate the carnage the phages were wreaking, and also the blowby damage that was done by the confused people.
your forgetting one key element TTH has to make sure of, his concurrent alterations do not end in the premature death of Harry himself and other unwanted effects, like Molly going bad, getting killed, ect. Same reason Thomas seems to follow him in the background after the 'LC incident'. Been awhile again... But if you notice by the time Harry arrives past the murk he's no longer afraid of the fetch, he's pissed directly because of the mayhem those extra seconds caused. So this is one more 'stop past self from dying' action that was actually all caused by an alteration of time regardless of if time travel Harry did it or GK, the moment Harry learned of black magic early it changed everything that had been going to happen, but the effect had to be controlled to keep it from ending up worse. Also not certain but
(click to show/hide)
Quote
4)  Probably something big at AT before the PG dungeon crawl party showed up.
To be honest, the main reason why think TTH was involved in the battle PGH saw the aftermath of is because I really want some closure on what happened here, and this is the ideal way to get it.  I WANT I WANT I WANT.  There maybe if I say it loud enough I'll get it.  (Griff has pointed out to me that Jim has promised us more story about what happened at AT)
if TTH did it, then the current 'cascade' had Harry becoming a denarian, which from MM seems likely enough. This would also explain mabs anger at Harry over the assault, her seeming double ontondra to me, implying one day he himself would pay, not for the second assault, but for the first one he may have done... Can't take balance on someone who hasn't done what they did yet I think...

Quote
5)  Fix Little Chicago the morning of the 2nd day, while Harry was out of the Appt. at the Hospital with Murphy, Bob, and Mouse.
Evidence for TTH kinda stacks up, not that there aren't alternate possibilities.
See my LC fix timing topic linked in the background post above for the evidence as to the timing
TTH was intimately familiar with LC.  And had the chops.  And knew it was there.  And could get in (not as big a deal).  All those things listed at the end of PG.
I have felt deep down for a long time that if TTH did it, he did it because a functional LC was absolutely vital for him to do something HE needed to cast a spell for.  This binds LC's fixing tightly to the "tropish TTH goals"
The Mystery of who fixed LC becomes necessary to preserve the space time continuum!
I'll just keep adding things to this post as I remember them or find the pertaining question in the first post, or if someone replies directly....
the cascade! Harry wasn't going to use little Chicago early before GK sent his note, it pushed up his actions and would have caused his death, so while future Harry could have done, current GK could have also if he was looking for echoes that he caused passing along the note... Personally, all the energy to one spot... Makes me wonder if TTH didn't arrive through it, it's basically I big focus for a time and place, Chicago, for only as long as the model was kept accurate, so thaumaturgically it could connect through time and space and be the 'dolorian' in question.
I'd think originally, he had given in to lash finally before he used it. In the current timeline he refuses in the moment...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 01:54:32 AM by Wizardofnelson »
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Offline Foxed

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Re: Serack's Proven Guilty workup [Spoilers for the whole series]
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2016, 09:45:15 PM »
Has anyone ever compiled a list of all the stuff that is "off" in PG? Just a bullet point list of the things that dont add up to the rest of the series or dont line up with the events of the big picture?
After reading the series so many times, I kind of think that PG doesnt take place in the same timeline/reality as the rest of the series. Just to name one thing really quick: Why does the sign in Mac's say "Accorded Neutral Ground" instead of the "Accorded Neutral Territory" like all of the other books post GP?
Maybe Ill try to set up a list like that and post it on its own thread after reading it again...

Did you read my Proven Guilty Mysteries thread? I tried to answer most of the issues using PG and Doylist and Watsonian speculation (some narrative feel stuff, some knowledge from later case files).

I tried very hard to find a theory that makes more sense than TT Harry, but I did not. Time travel makes the most sense for that novel.
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