Shapeshifters

[NongJoe]

Is it possible for a person with just the true shapeshifting skill to break any of the Laws of Magic? Particularly the first law?

I know that were-form doesn't count when it comes to the laws, but that's only for people who can change into 1 form. whereas true-shapeshifting can technically be inanimate objects as well as animate.
I have a character that is based off a focused practitioner but his focus is just shapeshifting. I'm looking for a way for his character to break, or be close to breaking one of the Laws.

Thanks for the advice!

[Taran]

If magic is the justification for taking the Power True Shapeshifting, then it could be.  Assuming you think changing yourself breaks the Laws, which I'm not sure it does.  It's up to your table.  Injun Joe shape shifted and no wardens are hunting for him...

If he has a way to shapeshift others, then it probably does break the Laws.

[Stormraven]

As Taran said, it's down to your table, but my take is this:

Shapeshift into a mundane animal (even if several pounds heavier than any living mundane animal) and you're in the clear. Damage caused is still mundane, since you had to learn how to do it.

Shapeshift using some variation on the Hexenwulf, and you're in a gray area, but zealous Wardens will likely see Black. Damage caused is mundane, but backed and supported by magic.

Shapeshift using some willing variation on the Loup Garou and you're solidly in the black. You've got a demonic co-pilot whom you've willing invited in, and you've surrendered control to it willingly. Damage is caused by magic, and is in no wise 'mundane'.

[Sanctaphrax]

Narratively speaking, you can basically do whatever. Mechanically speaking, though, I think it would be unwise to give a shapeshifter the Lawbreaker power. It's written specifically for spellcasters.

[dragoonbuster]

Shapeshifting yourself doesn't break the Laws. You can't break a Law "on yourself." The Laws break into two categories: "don't do X to other people" and "don't do X ever." The 2nd Law falls into that first category.

[Theogony_IX]

A note on the first law.  If you transform yourself specifically so you can kill someone, then that would break the first law.  If you transform yourself into something that can kill someone and by some fluke manage to lose control because of animal instinct or whatever and kill someone, then that would also break the first law.

[RonLugge]

A note on the first law.  If you transform yourself specifically so you can kill someone, then that would break the first law.  If you transform yourself into something that can kill someone and by some fluke manage to lose control because of animal instinct or whatever and kill someone, then that would also break the first law.

Except in neither case did you use magic to kill someone.

[Theogony_IX]

Except in neither case did you use magic to kill someone.

That would be a matter of interpretation, and the interpretation that Harry takes with Molly is that if you use magic to make a change in the world and that change kills someone, then the First Law sees you as responsible.  Whether you kill someone directly or indirectly using magic, it counts.

If Ramirez disintegrates the floor under someone's feet and they fall to their death, you could say that Ramirez didn't kill them with magic, the fall killed them. Saying that transforming yourself into a wolf and tearing someone's throat out only to say that the magic didn't kill them, your teeth did, is the same argument.  You transformed yourself with magic.  That transformation allowed you to overpower someone and tear their throat out.  You used magic to kill someone.

[Taran]

That would be a matter of interpretation, and the interpretation that Harry takes with Molly is that if you use magic to make a change in the world and that change kills someone, then the First Law sees you as responsible.  Whether you kill someone directly or indirectly using magic, it counts.

If Ramirez disintegrates the floor under someone's feet and they fall to their death, you could say that Ramirez didn't kill them with magic, the fall killed them. Saying that transforming yourself into a wolf and tearing someone's throat out only to say that the magic didn't kill them, your teeth did, is the same argument.  You transformed yourself with magic.  That transformation allowed you to overpower someone and tear their throat out.  You used magic to kill someone.

Except that Wardens kill people with magic swords all the time....

And they don't seem to break the Law.

This conversation might be better over in the Law Thread.

Lots of food for thought.  Read away!

[RonLugge]

That would be a matter of interpretation, and the interpretation that Harry takes with Molly is that if you use magic to make a change in the world and that change kills someone, then the First Law sees you as responsible.  Whether you kill someone directly or indirectly using magic, it counts.

If Ramirez disintegrates the floor under someone's feet and they fall to their death, you could say that Ramirez didn't kill them with magic, the fall killed them. Saying that transforming yourself into a wolf and tearing someone's throat out only to say that the magic didn't kill them, your teeth did, is the same argument.  You transformed yourself with magic.  That transformation allowed you to overpower someone and tear their throat out.  You used magic to kill someone.

Proximate cause Vs. direct cause.  Transforming myself into a wolf doesn't kill someone.  It just gives me the ability to rip their throat out.

But at this point, I think it's time to just let it drop and say 'your table may vary', because I don't think we will ever actually agree.

[Theogony_IX]

Yup, I'm a proximate cause kind of guy.

And yeah, I'd consider killing with a Warden sword mundane.  The magic isn't what's doing the killing and the magic isn't changing the world or person to allow the killing.  You're making the decision to chop someone's head off with a sword.  The magic is kind of secondary at that point.

EDIT:  But it does get muddled.  Yay gray area!

[g33k]

Except that Wardens kill people with magic swords all the time....
And they don't seem to break the Law.

Huh?  Wardens kill people with SWORDS.  Full stop.

Swords are tools for killing people.  When you get stabbed through the heart (or beheaded, evidently a Warden favorite) -- you DIE.

As I understand it, the sword isn't magically extra-damaging, or anything like that... the magic is really more about stopping the magic of bad guys -- severing it, parrying it, etc.  The magic is about making the Warden able to get within swords' reach of a badass maniac with enough magical power that they are a threat to the Status Quo.

For the purpose of "killing someone," the sword is effectively non-magical.  Even badass maniacs aren't at their best when their spinal cord loses connection with their skull...

Or have I misunderstood?

[dragoonbuster]

Or have I misunderstood?

You have not. Others have.

The swords have enchantments on them. That makes it a magic sword. However, those enchantments have to do with cutting through wards and other enchantments and such. They aren't used during executions or to actually kill someone--no magic is actually used when that sword snicker-snacks through their neck.

I know there are a lot of people around here whose opinions of the White Council/Wardens ranges between moderate dislike to outright hatred, but even the Council isn't so hypocritical that they let their wardens run around killing people with magic all the time.

[Taran]

Meh, I'm just going by the swords in YS.  They have a weapon 6 enchantment on them, if I'm not mistaken.  That makes them way sharper than a 'mundane' sword. 

So, assuming that's the case, then imbuing a sword with magical sharpness to better behead people is no different than imbuing your nails with magical claws to better disembowel people. 

The mundane versions of both can hurt and kill, the magical versions do it better.

[Theogony_IX]

Yeah, that's the muddy part.  It's supposed to be a 6-shift counterspell really, not an attack, but the description in the books does say they are supernaturally sharp.

I guess you just gotta use your best judgment for how much a role the magic plays in causing the death in question.  If it's a minor matter of degrees, then probably not so law breaking.  But if it's a difference in order of magnitude, then yeah, time to call in the Wardens.  At least, that is how I see it anyway.