Outer Gates Discussion

[zaczane]

So thinking about outer gate stuff, could use some people to bounce thoughts off of
perhaps hear some ideas about what other people think the outer gates is and what is beyond them
im also creating a character empowered by them but not in the traditional sense

[zaczane]

lets talk about the outer gates and Beyond

[Arcane]

*Reports zaczane to the Wardens for breaking the 7th Law*

[Cadd]

Have you read Cold Days? Because in it, several details regarding Outsiders and the Outer Gates are revealed; among them the fact that the gates are a lot less metaphorical than most wizards know.

[dragoonbuster]

Have you read Cold Days? Because in it, several details regarding Outsiders and the Outer Gates are revealed; among them the fact that the gates are a lot less metaphorical than most wizards know.

Seconded: read Cold Days if you haven't.


Otherwise, the only thing I did with the Outer Gates that isn't Canon is that Odin is (apparently) the one who made them (at least, he was the only one initially able to repair them after being damaged), and that Fenrir was imprisoned behind them. 

[Sanctaphrax]

I find it interesting that the Outer Gates are gates, and not just a wall. Whoever built them must have intended that they be opened at some point. So maybe the Outside isn't as universally bad as it seems. Or maybe the gate-builders didn't have the universe's best interests at heart.

PS: It seems you accidentally posted two topics, so I merged them. Never done that before...actually, I think that was the first actual moderation I've done in months. This is a pretty quiet place.

[Gaelicwolf]

I find it interesting that the Outer Gates are gates, and not just a wall. Whoever built them must have intended that they be opened at some point. So maybe the Outside isn't as universally bad as it seems. Or maybe the gate-builders didn't have the universe's best interests at heart.

Alternatively, it could be that once the Walls were built, that was when the things that we call Outsiders were banished or re-banished through the gates. In Dead Beat it is mentioned that the Old Ones were ancient gods/demons that once ruled over humanity, but have been cast out. I would say it was likely that some beings, maybe the Almighty or the Archangels (or some sort of equivalent) put up the Walls and then created the Gates to banish the Old Ones through. And the Outsiders are their foot soldiers, so I bet that those were their armies that were banished as well.

All speculation of course.

[Gaelicwolf]

As far as the Outer Gates and Outsiders go, I will reiterate what the others have said: Cold Days definitely has a lot of information about both.

But if you're looking for additional information, definitely go to Lovecraft for inspiration (as that's what Butcher is drawing inspiration from). TV Topes has a couple of great articles that could help ge tthe jiuces flowing for this sort of thing.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CosmicHorrorStory

[Haru]

I find it interesting that the Outer Gates are gates, and not just a wall. Whoever built them must have intended that they be opened at some point. So maybe the Outside isn't as universally bad as it seems. Or maybe the gate-builders didn't have the universe's best interests at heart.

It might just be that a wall wouldn't work, because it would eventually collapse under the pressure of the outsiders pushing in. By building a gate, you've not only got a pressure valve, but you have a dedicated place where the outsiders will come in, so you know where to put your armies to counter them. It might not be a perfect solution, but it might be the only one that works.

It could also be that, in addition, it might be possible to open smaller gates to let outsiders in. If you cut yourself off completely, this might still be possible, and when you have a gate, you can send these things back, if you can't kill them.

Likewise, it might be that there is a way to stop the outsiders, but only from outside. As such, someone needs to get out there and do it. Better build a gate to do that. Or maybe someone is outside and they are keeping the door open for them.

Tons of possibilities.

PS: It seems you accidentally posted two topics, so I merged them. Never done that before...actually, I think that was the first actual moderation I've done in months. This is a pretty quiet place.

Who'd want to anger a warden? Not me, sir, that's for sure. Nothing violating the laws of magic. I would never.

(He said after speculating at length on the nature of the outer gates. )

[Sanctaphrax]

Alternatively, it could be that once the Walls were built, that was when the things that we call Outsiders were banished or re-banished through the gates. In Dead Beat it is mentioned that the Old Ones were ancient gods/demons that once ruled over humanity, but have been cast out.

Interesting idea. Maybe there was no Outside before the gates were built, just a world filled with gods of varying morality. All the evil monsters of the Outside are earth-born creatures, exiled from the world for being too terrible to live and too tough to die. There's no deep difference between Kemmler and He Who Walks Behind, except that Kemmler was never forced to leave the world.

Would be nice to see the usual "our world is a tiny speck in the cosmic chaos" thing inverted. The eldritch abominations aren't older than us, or more important, or stronger; they're just the discarded refuse of the world.

That suggests a game idea, too; get your least favourite god through the gates and out of the universe.

[Gaelicwolf]

All the evil monsters of the Outside are earth-born creatures, exiled from the world for being too terrible to live and too tough to die.

Well, earth-born or creatures of the Nevernever. I imagine most things banished to the Outside would terrible things from the Nevernever, but I bet there might be some overlap.

Of course, then there is the question of what exactly being Banished to the Outside does to something. How does it change and warp a creature, how does it influence the demon/god/human's mind? Does being separated from reality itself change the very nature of the creature that was banished? These are all questions that we should never ask, lest the Wardens come knocking on our doors.

[Haru]

Of course, then there is the question of what exactly being Banished to the Outside does to something. How does it change and warp a creature, how does it influence the demon/god/human's mind? Does being separated from reality itself change the very nature of the creature that was banished? These are all questions that we should never ask, lest the Wardens come knocking on our doors.

It could simply be a case of evolutionary pressure without the restraints of reality. All those gods and demons being banished to the outside and fighting against each other could have forced them to adapt and change in ways unfathomable by mere human minds. I hazard to guess it's a pretty brutal version of "adapt or perish" as well. It might even be that it's not quite the more powerful gods that have survived, but the lower gods and demons that didn't really have a lot to lose and would be more open to changes that offer more power. It could even be that those lower gods and demons were brought together and part of those changes was losing their individuality (of which there was not much there to begin with), and eventually they became what we now know as the outsiders, this hive mind of various non-euclidean creatures.

[Sanctaphrax]

I strongly suspect that everything in the Nevernever comes from Earth originally. Vampires drink human blood and emotions, ghouls eat human flesh, gods absorb human worship, the fae take human sacrifices on their stone table...it seems like all the power in the Dresdenverse originally comes from people.

Except maybe the power of God. And Bigfoot.

[Taran]

Except maybe the power of God

I don't know.  The White God is pretty popular.  One of the most popular gods on earth...lots and lots of worshipers, which would make him pretty powerful.  I would say he's probably affected by worship the same as any other god. 

[Lavecki121]

I like to think that the outsiders exist due to the same reason the Never exists. Promotion of human thought. Grimms Fairy Tales are there to help keep many of the Never Never creatures alive. I like the idea that the Necronomicon or any other of Lovecraft works exist for the same purpose.