Sixth Law

[SirJackers]

So I'm new to the forum and haven't gotten to play the rpg yet (my gaming group is in talks, fingers crossed) and i had a question to do with one of the lesser addressed laws and haven't seen anything addressing this particular perspective.

So the sixth law states that you can't "swim against the current of time", what about flowing with it?

Could I use magic to jump ahead in time therefore not fighting the flow and getting into any paradoxical mumbojumbo?

[dragoonbuster]

You could certainly do that, but jumping forward in time is...super boring. What's the point, practically, in-game? You lose any ability to affect events that occur in the time-jump. A good FATE (N)PC wouldn't ever want to jump forward in time like that, at least not during a campaign, because FATE (N)PCs are proactive.

At my table, we've even said you can slow time without "swimming against it."

Also, regarding paradox--Kringle was clear that paradoxes don't really happen. It's nearly impossible to put enough energy into changing the past to actually do something paradoxical. Harry dubs it "The Law of Conservation of History?" At our table I've run a reoccurring villain (actually an evil, alternate-universe Merlin) who seriously messes with time. Several paradoxes have happened because of him...but the way I constructed time travel, the Law of Conservation of History still works, albeit differently. The basic idea is that if you went back in time and killed your grandfather...he isn't your grandfather--someone else would raise your mother/father instead. You'd wind up with two conflicting sets of memories that are difficult and offputting until you can sort through them and get them under control.

[SirJackers]

Sweet, I'm thinking of rolling up a wizards apprentice from the dark ages who found his master's ritual that throws him hundreds of years into the future. I was just wondering if i need a Lawbreaker/should worry about wardens.

[dragoonbuster]

Sweet, I'm thinking of rolling up a wizards apprentice from the dark ages who found his master's ritual that throws him hundreds of years into the future. I was just wondering if i need a Lawbreaker/should worry about wardens.

We literally had a PC do the exact same thing The apprentice wasn't a Lawbreaker, though the Master was. THe Wardens came for him and he sent the apprentice forward in time admonishing her to "wait for him." Alas, he never showed up. As far as the Wardens...well, some Wardens *might* still be alive hundreds of years later, but you're approaching the edge of a wizard's lifespan. It's doubtful that anyone could connect you in the future, now, to yourself in the past. And a Soulgaze should determine your innocence, if someone suspects you (maybe your ritual left an energy impression that clearly reads "time travel") then maybe you're watched or put on probation. I would say that's up to you and your Aspects, and the GM.

[SirJackers]

Good points. I'm also thinking about how i could use the ritual in normal play. Need to keep the artifact out of the big bad's hands? Send into the aether for a week.....or better yet, send him...

[SirJackers]

Mind you that should be compelled hardcore, but it'd make for an interesting story. Also there's that handy little time chart for how far the shifts would send something.

[Taran]

welcome!

If you want to read more on the laws, there's a dedicated thread:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36777.0.html

[Sanctaphrax]

Good points. I'm also thinking about how i could use the ritual in normal play.

If you wanna kill someone, but have moral qualms, then you can send them 500 years into the future. They're not dead or even hurt, but they're not your problem any more.

Avoids First Law issues too. That often doesn't mean much in person where you can incapacitate and then shoot, but it's pretty important if you're attacking through an arcane link.

Also convenient if your enemy is immortal, like a Denarian in a coin. Such enemies are likely to have defenses, though.

Could be a fancy way to preserve someone who's dying. Send them forward a week, get a team of doctors ready to receive them when they return.

You could use it for an ambush too. Go to where someone will be, send soldiers forward to when they'll be there. You could try it with a bomb too, but hexing might interfere.

If you can cast fast, it might be a good way to avoid attacks. Step forward five minutes, one minute before the bomb drops.

PS: I'll get rid of the duplicate thread.

[SirJackers]

Thanks for getting rid of the dupe. My computer was being dumb. Would you allow that in your game as an evocation of would it be limited to thaumaturgy? I could see split second jump forward to avoid a hail of bullets. Or something similar. I imagine the power necessary would limit the time jump when evocation is used. Temporary aspects like wrinkle in time would be pretty cool too.

[dragoonbuster]

Thanks for getting rid of the dupe. My computer was being dumb. Would you allow that in your game as an evocation of would it be limited to thaumaturgy? I could see split second jump forward to avoid a hail of bullets. Or something similar. I imagine the power necessary would limit the time jump when evocation is used. Temporary aspects like wrinkle in time would be pretty cool too.

For me, you'd need some kind of Temporal Evothaum. A -2 Superior Chronomancy that grants evothaum w/ chronomantic spells and +1 power/control (or some other -1ish refresh worth of Extra Benefit) stacked onto Ritual: Chronomancy or Thaumaturgy is how we handle it at our game.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, you'd need thaumaturgy to launch people through time. And you'd need to do it with the speed and methods of evocation to do it in a fight.

Here's a Sponsored Magic from the wiki that might be good for someone who wants to do a lot of chronomancy.

TIME MANIPULATION [-4]
Description: This is power granted by Kronos, the God of Time.
Sponsor: Kronos, the God of Time, who grants his scions the ability to move freely throughout time (within reason).
Agenda: Kronos works to keep the timestream in working order. He uses scions who have the ability to travel along the timestream to prevent temporal anomalies from occurring.
Evocation: Time Manipulation evocations work by slowing down and speeding up the flow of time. This provides the normal set of Evocation effects, but with some funky desciptions; attacks might work by causing time to flow unevenly across the target's body while blocks might work by creating narrow slices of space where time barely moves.
Thaumaturgy: Time Manipulation rituals manipulate time. Straightforward time travel is their most obvious application, but not their only one.
Evothaum: All rituals that may be cast with Time Manipulation may be cast with Evocation's speed and methods.
Extra Benefits: Characters with Time Manipulation have a Lore-based Supernatural Sense for time. It can be used to tell what time it is, to detect disruptions to the timestream, and to determine whether an action will damage the flow of time. Other related effects are also possible; this list is not exhaustive. Some scions of Kronos use this ability to collect souvenirs from the past without changing history.

[Taran]

I'd allow a focused practitioner who's a chronomancer.

Ritual, Chronomancy
Evocation: Time, space and something...
or Channeling: time

Evocation let's block/maneuver/attack.  It's exactly the same as regular evocation but your descriptions are different.  Seems fine to me especially considering evocation 'elements' are more about the person wielding the magic than the magic itself.

You still can't do Skill Replacement evocations or anything that evothaum allows(mechanically speaking).  You don't get a 'special ability' like a sponsored magic has.  costs the same, anyways.

Blocks are you hopping from space to space in the blink of an eye, or slowing an opponent enough to move out of the way.  Zone border blocks can just be temporary hiccups in time that put a person back where they were a split second before they tried to overcome the border.

Attacks are made by speeding up aging on a person, causing body parts to break down/rot away

Maneuvers are maneuvers...be creative. 

It doesn't break the game.  Not sure if its Dresden-y, setting-wise...but I'm not sure TIME MANIPULATION sponsored magic is any more Dresden-like.

[SirJackers]

I think I'd go the Ritual and Channeling route. The idea for the character is that they're very much a novice spellcaster, and seeing as how Dresden has mentioned how magic has changed over the millenia it would make sense that the little magic he does know (rituals wise) wouldn't work the same and it'd also make sense that time magic stays constant over that time

[Lavecki121]

There is a PBP on here somewhere where that sponsored magic above was used. I made a character who was a Chronomancer. He actually had the lawbreaker attribute, but i don't believe it got brought up, but the GM (I Believe it was Taran's Montreal Game) did a lot of things that dealt with the time aspect that i really liked.

[Taran]

Man, I had plans for your character.....I should share them with you some time