Dresden vs everyone in the Genre

[Lizard King]

One of the reasons I love Dresden series is this:

It's not about a tough, angst ridden, female character who struggles with being comfortable with who she is etc. etc. etc. 

Has anyone else noticed, and or been frustrated with, this trend in the genre?  Laurel K. Hamilton's Anita Blake series is good.  But it is tiresome in it's sameness.  Lillith St. Crow and her "Devil's Right Hand" series is okay, but it's character Dante Valentine is a Xerox of Anita Blake from Hamilton's books.  Kelly Armstrong is too similar as well.  In fact, Charlaine Harris is the most palatable of the group, but it's still more of the same. 

So I love the Dresden series, and want more like it.  Jim can't right them quickly enough for me.  Can anyone make a recommendation for me?  Harry Dresden and John Constantine are my favorite characters of this type, and I just want more. 

[Kiriath]

Try the Angel TV series.

[Lizard King]

Well, I feel kind of silly now.  I just found a huge section for just this topic under the Media section.

So, I'll start perusing that. 

[Qualapec]

One series I like about a female character is Patricia Briggs' Mercedes Thompson series. Mercy (the main character) is very down-to-earth. There's a little bit of angst, but both author and character handle it quite well. It's not overdone either. She's also tough but not ridiculesly so. I'm rather fond of the series.

~She-Wolf

[Lizard King]

One series I like about a female character is Patricia Briggs' Mercedes Thompson series. Mercy (the main character) is very down-to-earth. There's a little bit of angst, but both author and character handle it quite well. It's not overdone either. She's also tough but not ridiculesly so. I'm rather fond of the series.

~She-Wolf

That's cool.  Obviously their has to be some internal conflict to have any depth to it.  As long as the character doesn't become all "emo" about it.  Male or female isn't really the issue.  I just want to be able to relate.
Thanks for the advice. 

[seradhe]

Male or female isn't really the issue.  I just want to be able to relate.
Thanks for the advice. 

actually I have to admit a major factor that got me into Dresden was the fact that he's male.

Don't get me wrong or take me for a sexist. Even as a hip, modern, sensitive 21st century guy, there's a lot of things in books with a female lead I just have to take the authors word on.

With Dresden it's like "he's noticing a womans chest! I do that!!"

[Lizard King]

actually I have to admit a major factor that got me into Dresden was the fact that he's male.

Don't get me wrong or take me for a sexist. Even as a hip, modern, sensitive 21st century guy, there's a lot of things in books with a female lead I just have to take the authors word on.

With Dresden it's like "he's noticing a womans chest! I do that!!"

Well, they say "write what you know".  Sometimes it's nice to read what you know, no doubt!

[novium]

"
It's not about a tough, angst ridden, female character who struggles with being comfortable with who she is etc. etc. etc.  ""

That can only be applied to the first Kelley Armstrong book.

But I am getting a bit sick of the whole genre. No longer is it just vampires that are overdone, now it is everything that is overdone, now that the whole genre has become the latest cheap romance novel fad (Looking over the books in the supermarket, I can hardly believe it), and TV fad.

I liked this genre because it was different, inventive, and new. I never knew quite what to expect. I wonder if, when the genre was a bit less popular, only the better novels tended to get published, and that is the difference. Now it's all the same rote stuff with a thin layer of rote urban fantasy on top.

[DragonFire]

"
It's not about a tough, angst ridden, female character who struggles with being comfortable with who she is etc. etc. etc.  ""

That can only be applied to the first Kelley Armstrong book.

Not really. It's worst in the first one, but there's a lot of crap in Dime Store magic, too.
She really manages to hit her stride in 'Industrial Magic' and it's toned down a lot since then.
I mean, there's almost a whole paragraph in DSM where Paige goes on about different fabrics and why she likes them.

But I am getting a bit sick of the whole genre. No longer is it just vampires that are overdone, now it is everything that is overdone, now that the whole genre has become the latest cheap romance novel fad (Looking over the books in the supermarket, I can hardly believe it), and TV fad.

Partially because, and this sounds like a prick thing to say, but a lot of romance writers have added supernatural elements into their books, and those are now billed as 'urban fantasy'.
Also, I find female writers amp up the relationships, and angst, and male writers don't.
More women than men write fantasy , and so, because it's modern day, I believe, a lot of them become psuedo romances. LEt's face it, there's a lot about clothes and guys and all that sort of stuff in Kelley Armstrong, Rachel Caine, Kim Harrison, LKH. A lot fo time, the female lead worries about her love life, the long, lavish descriptions of clothes, the painstaking description of just how hot every male char is, and very rarely any ugly ones, and so on.

WHereas in DF, or if you've read Marc Del Franco's Unshapely things, or Kelly McCollugh's Webmage, there is more emphasis on plot, more interpersonal relationships, and, (and this will sound sexist) more inclination to have the main char look stupid.
I perosnally believe this makes them look and feel more 3d and real.

Does anyone think Elena, Paige, or Jo-anne Baldwin are as 3d as Harry?
I don't.

I liked this genre because it was different, inventive, and new. I never knew quite what to expect. I wonder if, when the genre was a bit less popular, only the better novels tended to get published, and that is the difference. Now it's all the same rote stuff with a thin layer of rote urban fantasy on top.

There is still new and inventive stuff out there, you just need to try and avoid the romance masquarading as urban fantasy.

[Sandor Clegane]

I picked up a Kim Harrison book the other day, after hearing that it was sort of like the Dresden Files. Well it is, sort of. The plot is advancing sort of slowly and I guess it doesn't help that I managed to pick up the 4th book in the series and not say the 1st.

Anyway it just doesn't seem to read as fast, as for Rachel Morgan being 3d, I haven't read enough to be sure, but she is pretty clumsy, and has made several mistakes already by saying the wrong thing  a la Dresden and doesn't epict herself as extremely intelligent. The thing is it isn't as compelling as DF is, it isn't like I'm struggling through it, I'm just don't get the can't put this book down feeling like I get from DF, ASoIaF, SoT, Codex Alera.

Still it is a good read, just not great IMHO.

[novium]

I must strongly disagree. Very strongly. Your comments about cliched interests of women might be true if we were talking about what I think of as "bimbo urban fantasy" - ala undead and unwed, the sookie stackhouse books anymore, etc, but it can hardly be said of Kelley Armstrong or Rachel Kaine's books (i'm not going to defend Kim Harrison nor LKH because they're is a vibe they share and I dislike both of their series). The only one I can think to even slightly apply it to is the most recent Kelley Armstrong book- but let's face it, Jaime is superficially a bimbo.

K.A.'s books seem much more realistic to me, with much more real characters. I love dresden to death, but let's face it, he... fits a mold, in a sense. He's a recognizable character. There aren't a ton of psychological layers there, but don't tell me he doesn't wallow in angst. And to a certain extent, it's necessary, because a good story will have drama and tension, and the characters will have feelings about things, otherwise it is quite, quite boring.

I found webmage quite dull. I couldn't bring myself to care about the main character.

More emphasis on plot and interpersonal relationships?

Please. This is ridiculous to the extreme. men and women do not have such disparate writing styles that you can make such claims.

Also, I find female writers amp up the relationships, and angst, and male writers don't.
More women than men write fantasy , and so, because it's modern day, I believe, a lot of them become psuedo romances. LEt's face it, there's a lot about clothes and guys and all that sort of stuff in Kelley Armstrong, Rachel Caine, Kim Harrison, LKH. A lot fo time, the female lead worries about her love life, the long, lavish descriptions of clothes, the painstaking description of just how hot every male char is, and very rarely any ugly ones, and so on.

WHereas in DF, or if you've read Marc Del Franco's Unshapely things, or Kelly McCollugh's Webmage, there is more emphasis on plot, more interpersonal relationships, and, (and this will sound sexist) more inclination to have the main char look stupid.
I perosnally believe this makes them look and feel more 3d and real.

Does anyone think Elena, Paige, or Jo-anne Baldwin are as 3d as Harry?
I don't.There is still new and inventive stuff out there, you just need to try and avoid the romance masquarading as urban fantasy.

[Ursiel]

Series that I really liked were The Inheritence Trilogy (3rd book not out yet) and The Chronicles of Amber. Not really female based or anything, but they're a good series.

[seradhe]

I must strongly disagree. Very strongly. Your comments about cliched interests of women might be true if we were talking about what I think of as "bimbo urban fantasy" - ala undead and unwed, the sookie stackhouse books anymore, etc, but it can hardly be said of Kelley Armstrong or Rachel Kaine's books (i'm not going to defend Kim Harrison nor LKH because they're is a vibe they share and I dislike both of their series). The only one I can think to even slightly apply it to is the most recent Kelley Armstrong book- but let's face it, Jaime is superficially a bimbo.

I agree with your concept of "Bimbo Urban Fantasy", having read Undead and Unwed (as well as Undead and Unemplyed, Undead and Unappreciated, and Undead and Unreturnable). I actually enjoyed MaryJanice Davidsons works because they were so gloriously Shallow in a genre that naturally carries a certain level of depth.

K.A.'s books seem much more realistic to me, with much more real characters. I love dresden to death, but let's face it, he... fits a mold, in a sense. He's a recognizable character. There aren't a ton of psychological layers there, but don't tell me he doesn't wallow in angst. And to a certain extent, it's necessary, because a good story will have drama and tension, and the characters will have feelings about things, otherwise it is quite, quite boring.

Dresden has some of the traits commonplace in the genre for sure. The whole "I have access to a lot of power, but I don't want it" is a pretty average flavor to books.

Please. This is ridiculous to the extreme. men and women do not have such disparate writing styles that you can make such claims.

I agree fully, but we're not talking about the writing style, more of the main characters P.O.V. in the world.

There isn't a clear-cut line between male and female leads, Unless of course you're comparing Undead and Unwed and, say... Gil's all Fright Diner by A. Lee Martinez.

[novium]

I found the first few amusing, but as soon it seemed that I saw the bimbo genre (and more than just urban fantasy) everywhere, the more I tired of it.

I was using 'writing style' in a more full sense, applying it to the kinds of stories told, the types of characters, the descriptions, etc.

There have been many times I have been somewhat surprised to realize that an author was male or female, after reading a book of theirs. Not usually because the book gave me an impression of a gender...but rather the opposite, that the book did nothing to remind me of gender, it just hit upon humanity so perfectly that I forgot about shoving people into categories, and thus the reveal of the author's gender forced me to remember all the societal constructions that go along with it.

I agree with your concept of "Bimbo Urban Fantasy", having read Undead and Unwed (as well as Undead and Unemplyed, Undead and Unappreciated, and Undead and Unreturnable). I actually enjoyed MaryJanice Davidsons works because they were so gloriously Shallow in a genre that naturally carries a certain level of depth.

Dresden has some of the traits commonplace in the genre for sure. The whole "I have access to a lot of power, but I don't want it" is a pretty average flavor to books.

I agree fully, but we're not talking about the writing style, more of the main characters P.O.V. in the world.

There isn't a clear-cut line between male and female leads, Unless of course you're comparing Undead and Unwed and, say... Gil's all Fright Diner by A. Lee Martinez.

[seradhe]

I found the first few amusing, but as soon it seemed that I saw the bimbo genre (and more than just urban fantasy) everywhere, the more I tired of it.

I was using 'writing style' in a more full sense, applying it to the kinds of stories told, the types of characters, the descriptions, etc.

There have been many times I have been somewhat surprised to realize that an author was male or female, after reading a book of theirs. Not usually because the book gave me an impression of a gender...but rather the opposite, that the book did nothing to remind me of gender, it just hit upon humanity so perfectly that I forgot about shoving people into categories, and thus the reveal of the author's gender forced me to remember all the societal constructions that go along with it.

Are we discussing the gender of the author, or the gender of the authors creations? In books written in first person it's a real talent to avoid a gender Bias and write more than so many pages, eventually standard grammar or social practices will reveal it.

I honestly can't think of the last book I've read where the characters gender became a non-point in light of the greater story, I don't think I ever consider the characters' gender to be an issue unless it's brought up within the book (IE the "tough female" character being picked on by a bunch of big macho-male types because they think of her as weak).

As for the authors gender... If I like the story they could be a eunich from Saturn for all I care.