Watsonian McAnally: the son of the chief physician.

[Eldest Gruff]

Yeah, but my issue with that is in the M=R theory, Mac is there to specifically watch over DR, seeing as he's invested in it.  He's not really there for Harry.  His presence probably preceded Harry's arrival in Chicago by millennia.  He's been this bald white dude, hanging out with Indian tribes and Cubs fans for 1,500+ years.

As I see it the two don't necessarily need to be mutually exclusive in this case. We know he opened the bar a few years prior to Harry's arrival...perhaps 'Mac' is simply this version of himself. Like the immortals in Highlander, he leaves for a few decades here and there in order to keep suspicion or unnecessary inquiries from being made and returns after some time. This time however perhaps he is aware in some way that a Starborn has come into play and just so happens to conveniently place himself in the 'right spot' for Harry's arrival.

[Griffyn612]

Luckily in this instance Harry says it himself in DB as also sourced somewhere up there 

The book says Mac opened the pub a few years before Harry arrived in town, not that he arrived a few years before Harry.  He might have been in Chicago all along, or might have moved there before Harry got there.  Doesn't explain how he'd know Harry would eventually go there, to know that he should set up shop there.

As I see it the two don't necessarily need to be mutually exclusive in this case. We know he opened the bar a few years prior to Harry's arrival...perhaps 'Mac' is simply this version of himself. Like the immortals in Highlander, he leaves for a few decades here and there in order to keep suspicion or unnecessary inquiries from being made and returns after some time. This time however perhaps he is aware in some way that a Starborn has come into play and just so happens to conveniently place himself in the 'right spot' for Harry's arrival.

We still would need to know why Harry went to Chicago to begin with.  It's not like he went there because Lea recommended it; he was running from her after he welched on their deal.  So there's no reason that others would have known, unless they're mucking about with free will or peaking into the future.

[Eldest Gruff]

The book says Mac opened the pub a few years before Harry arrived in town, not that he arrived a few years before Harry.  He might have been in Chicago all along, or might have moved there before Harry got there.  Doesn't explain how he'd know Harry would eventually go there, to know that he should set up shop there.

True. But it also says no one knows where he was or what he did prior to that. So in all possibility, his opening of the bar was part and parcel with coming to Chicago (or returning as the case may be).

We still would need to know why Harry went to Chicago to begin with.  It's not like he went there because Lea recommended it; he was running from her after he welched on their deal.  So there's no reason that others would have known, unless they're mucking about with free will or peaking into the future.

Idk why it would much require mucking around with free will or even peeking into the future for an angel (or former angel) to have access to or the advantage of the same general 'divine coincidence' that governs or aids the Knights. Whatever drove Harry there is certainly another question but could just as easily be chalked up to 'why not' Chicago?

[Argonometra]

Whatever drove Harry there is certainly another question but could just as easily be chalked up to 'why not' Chicago?

It's a nearby city that has coffee and public TVs.

[Serack]

I've never bothered with any of the RPG stuff.  I don't hold any of it as canon.  It's too easy to dismiss as flawed.

I was too depressed about not being able to find the mentioned RPG quote in the WoJ's or regular canon to read EG's theory earlier, so I still have to go through it...

Edit:  I just deleted what I was going to say, because EG found it in Dead Beat as well.

EG, post it in the timeline bro!

[Eldest Gruff]

I was too depressed about not being able to find the mentioned RPG quote in the WoJ's or regular canon to read EG's theory earlier, so I still have to go through it...

No worries, it ain't goin' anywhere 

Edit:  I just deleted what I was going to say, because EG found it in Dead Beat as well.

EG, post it in the timeline bro!

Knnn covered it in absentia for me

[Lawgiver]

Mac is able to call Harry for help, also (Heorot).  If Mac has been around for millenia, it seems he's likely to know who took Elizabeth (was that her name?), and how dangerous it would be for Harry to face the Grendelkin (although assuming he knew all that, it's likely he knew Sigrun would be involved so Harry wouldn't be going in alone).  Involving himself as he did there (by getting Harry involved) seems sort of non-neutral to me.

(Just tossing this out there - I don't have an opinion on Mac either way.)

Pretending neutrality when one actually isn't neutral isn't exactly a new covert tactic.
Some of what's been quoted before is relevant to a slightly different angle on things.

Eldest Gruff said:

Mac is there, at someone's behest or his own, to 'look in' on Harry so to speak. How he does or does not handle him is partly up to his discretion I imagine but also at least somewhat beholden to whatever nature he is or turns out to be and the choices that came of it.

Not necessarily wrong, per se, just possibly a bit underestimating.

From DB we know,

He'd opened the tavern a few years before I'd moved to Chicago.

This is either pure happenstance (accident) or Mac is there purposefully.

When Vadderung (Kringle) says,

If one wishes to alter the course of history, it's a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future.

he might be giving a very big clue that's being totally missed (by Harry and all of us).

Harry's disturbed by Vadderung's knowledge saying,

Oh, man. Vadderung knew about Ebenezar. Which meant that either he was higher in the old man's circle of trust than I was, or he had access to an astoundingly scary pool of information.

Though it's probably both, as Odin, we know he's definitely got 'an astoundingly scary pool of information'. That's one of Odin's hallmark traits - foreknowledge.

I think it just as likely that, in addition to the favored Tam Lin/Gregori/Transbstantiated Raphael trio, Mac could possibly be a seperate agent placed for the purpose of doing what Odin/Kringle has proposed -- shape the future by starting far enough in the past to get that job done without alerting many figures of power to the manipulation. JB has indicated that creating a Starborn involves a complex set of events. There's nothing in that phrase that specifies that all those events have to occur before that Starborn's birth. He's also indicated that Elaine is (or at least has been) a potential Starborn. Meaning either pre-birth circumstances should have mirrored Harry's in some way and we've little to go on that supports that. So, by implication it seems that "Starborn" might be an on going process... a destination not a starting point.

[namkcas]

The one thing is that Mac is neutral under the accords, but when the Outsiders came - he treated the pub as not neutral ground.

If it was an Accords member, the request to "Send the Wizard Out" would have been met by Harry going out to fight whatever.  You aren't supposed to fight in Mac's as an accords member and at least one place it says that you are not supposed to taunt someone into violence.  Given that they are Mab's accords, Harry would be compelled to follow them and meet an Accords member.

Instead Mac acted to defend his place.  He told Harry and Thomas to kill the Outsiders.  This means not only does he know them, but he does not act neutrally to them.  As on my post in Serak's thread, compare this to his demeanor on the island.  Back to neutrality.  If the Ladies blow up the island, he would shrug.  But let an Outsider show up and he is ready to throw down.  To me that is our biggest clue.

[Eldest Gruff]

The one thing is that Mac is neutral under the accords, but when the Outsiders came - he treated the pub as not neutral ground.

If it was an Accords member, the request to "Send the Wizard Out" would have been met by Harry going out to fight whatever.  You aren't supposed to fight in Mac's as an accords member and at least one place it says that you are not supposed to taunt someone into violence.  Given that they are Mab's accords, Harry would be compelled to follow them and meet an Accords member.

Instead Mac acted to defend his place.  He told Harry and Thomas to kill the Outsiders.  This means not only does he know them, but he does not act neutrally to them.  As on my post in Serak's thread, compare this to his demeanor on the island.  Back to neutrality.  If the Ladies blow up the island, he would shrug.  But let an Outsider show up and he is ready to throw down.  To me that is our biggest clue.

I don't disagree in principle with regards to Mac's general neutrality as it pertains to this idea but I don't believe it would have mattered if an Accords member 'called him out' so to speak and Harry would have felt compelled to go. Nor does it make any sense that Mac could not defend his place from assault if attacked first whether the attacker was an Accords member (or in this instance violator and therefore fair game) or an Outsider. Mac's is neutral, so whichever Accords member is doing this challenge is not gonna attack the place if Harry decided to hunker down there for a while, he'd just look like a coward. Just look at the sourced encounter between him and Tiny, Harry didn't go to fight him. Granted Murphy intervened there but Harry had no intention of going out with Tiny to fight, nor did Tiny or he have any intention of fighting in the bar. Tiny taunted him, threatened him and tried to goad him into the fight so i'm pretty sure if that was mentioned at all as not allowed Mac would have taken issue. But the outcome was the same one way or the other, Tiny challenged Harry and Harry didn't go.

Whether they are Mab's Accords or Harry is the Winter Knight isn't gonna play into anything...if he's in Mac's you can't touch him as an Accords member and you have to wait for him to go. MAC himself is the only one who could compel Harry out of his establishment if such trouble ever came a knockin' and there is no reason to believe he would do so given he's already had the chance and never did. Harry would not be any more compelled to go out there and 'face his challenger' than he was previously. He can sit back and drink all the beer he wants till HE is ready to get going and there isn't a damn thing any challenger could do about it outside of A) branding Harry a coward or B) attacking Mac's. One of those ain't happening and the other is water off a wizards ass so to speak.

[Serack]

I like the post.  I have two suggestions. 

First is that you shift the TL;DR version into spoiler code at the top of the first post.

Second is to provide links to the preexisting identity theory topics as Tam Lin and Raphael in your references to them in the conclusion paragraphs.

The search function didn't help me find a Grigori topic.

[Eldest Gruff]

I like the post.  I have two suggestions. 

First is that you shift the TL;DR version into spoiler code at the top of the first post.

Second is to provide links to the preexisting identity theory topics as Tam Lin and Raphael in your references to them in the conclusion paragraphs.

The search function didn't help me find a Grigori topic.

Done and done.

[XeroOmega]

I need to re-read the series again. Reading through the context of everything here, this passage in particular really stands out. This is more than just recognition, its almost familiarity:

(click to show/hide)

Mac's words seemed to do what none of my nonsense had-they made Sharkface pissed off. It whirled toward Mac, dozens of sackcloth strips flicking out in every direction, grabbing whatever objects were there, and its alien voice came out in a harsh rasp. "You!" Sharkface snarled. "You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it."

So then my question is, who would have had contact with the Outsiders to the point of being familiar to them? and of those, who would have the ability to choose to be "out"? The list would be very small. Essentially down to Wizards and Guardians of the Gate. Perhaps someone even older or possibly unique. Mac is DV's equivalent of Shepard Book.

There are a couple of WoJ's I'd like to share:
There is a WoJ that states Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.
[the Winter Lady] didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.

If you haven't guessed where I'm going with this already, here it is: Mac could possibly be one of the previous starborn. One that helped Mab ascend to Queen of Winter, and received immortality or extreme longevity in exchange for his neutrality in future events. This would also explain his interest in Harry, his place in the Accords, and familiarity with many of the elite denizens that filter through his pub.

[Griffyn612]

I need to re-read the series again. Reading through the context of everything here, this passage in particular really stands out. This is more than just recognition, its almost familiarity:

(click to show/hide)

Mac's words seemed to do what none of my nonsense had-they made Sharkface pissed off. It whirled toward Mac, dozens of sackcloth strips flicking out in every direction, grabbing whatever objects were there, and its alien voice came out in a harsh rasp. "You!" Sharkface snarled. "You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it."

So then my question is, who would have had contact with the Outsiders to the point of being familiar to them? and of those, who would have the ability to choose to be "out"? The list would be very small. Essentially down to Wizards and Guardians of the Gate. Perhaps someone even older or possibly unique. Mac is DV's equivalent of Shepard Book.

There are a couple of WoJ's I'd like to share:
There is a WoJ that states Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.
[the Winter Lady] didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.

If you haven't guessed where I'm going with this already, here it is: Mac could possibly be one of the previous starborn. One that helped Mab ascend to Queen of Winter, and received immortality or extreme longevity in exchange for his neutrality in future events. This would also explain his interest in Harry, his place in the Accords, and familiarity with many of the elite denizens that filter through his pub.

You're missing the key parts of Sharkface's rant.  He tells Mac he's 'empty', as in he previously had more to him.  And he says, 'have the grace'.  Maybe mockingly?  As in, Grace?  As in, he doesn't have it, so mock him for it?  And what being wouldn't have a Grace?  Hmm?

[Eldest Gruff]

I need to re-read the series again. Reading through the context of everything here, this passage in particular really stands out. This is more than just recognition, its almost familiarity:

(click to show/hide)

Mac's words seemed to do what none of my nonsense had-they made Sharkface pissed off. It whirled toward Mac, dozens of sackcloth strips flicking out in every direction, grabbing whatever objects were there, and its alien voice came out in a harsh rasp. "You!" Sharkface snarled. "You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die beside it."

So then my question is, who would have had contact with the Outsiders to the point of being familiar to them? and of those, who would have the ability to choose to be "out"? The list would be very small. Essentially down to Wizards and Guardians of the Gate. Perhaps someone even older or possibly unique. Mac is DV's equivalent of Shepard Book.

There are a couple of WoJ's I'd like to share:
There is a WoJ that states Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.
[the Winter Lady] didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.

If you haven't guessed where I'm going with this already, here it is: Mac could possibly be one of the previous starborn. One that helped Mab ascend to Queen of Winter, and received immortality or extreme longevity in exchange for his neutrality in future events. This would also explain his interest in Harry, his place in the Accords, and familiarity with many of the elite denizens that filter through his pub.

If you wanna edit these in to reflect mentioning them:

Reddit AMA (5-16-2014)
Is Mac more than a human? I think he's not, but there's a growing faction that believes he's either Merlin or some sort of Gray Angel
Mac has never once done anything beyond the capability of a plain old vanilla human being.

KC Signing
Audience Member: You said the Winter, rather, Knights’ mantles change fairly often? How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?

Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around. And so Mab had Maeve, um, but in any case, I leave things here, don’t miss ‘em. I love to drop teases and hints and walk away smiling, but anyway. They don’t change very often at all. The Knights’ mantles change, like, constantly. Most Knights are Knights who pick up a sword for a night. And then they’re done. It’s just some random Joe, who happens to be a decent guy, and it’s like, “Look, magical sword, horrible danger! Do something!”. A lot of those guys don't go very far (I think that's what was said) Just because you’re a great guy doesn't mean you’re smart enough to survive an encounter with demons, for example. And we’ll see a bit more of that in the next book, too.

As it pertains to the overall idea, that would at least tangentially give Harry the same general option to just say 'screw it, i'm done,' and be left alone. I don't think anyone, especially him, would get off so easily  Hell even Mac who is 'out' had his bar assaulted AND was shot/kidnapped in the same book.

[Lawgiver]

If you wanna edit these in to reflect mentioning them:

As it pertains to the overall idea, that would at least tangentially give Harry the same general option to just say 'screw it, i'm done,' and be left alone. I don't think anyone, especially him, would get off so easily  Hell even Mac who is 'out' had his bar assaulted AND was shot/kidnapped in the same book.

I think the "knights" referenced by the questioner were KotCs, not Knights of the Fae Courts. Murphy and Susan are both examples of KotC that hold a sword for a short time; both during the Chichen Itza assault (yes, I'm saying Murphy has already been a KotC, a 'one knight stand' so to speak ). Rapid changeover in KotCs doesn't, to me, provide Harry any 'out' from his position.