Doylist analysis of the Scooby Gang at the climax of Cold Days

[Eldest Gruff]

     If there was some prior involvement of Mab with Mac, shooting him would not only be a slight against Mab's honor, but Maeve would get 'extra points' for hurting one of Mab's friends, and possibly her lover. This would also explain why Mab pulled the bullet out without trying to goad Mac into some kind of bargain. She is good at getting someone over a barrel, then pulling the rug out from under them.

More likely that since the Mab was simply balancing the scales by helping someone wrongly injured by a member of her Court.

     Mab wanted Maeve dead, but for some reason could not kill Maeve herself. Harry did not want to kill Maeve, even though as the Winter Knight, he is bound to follow the orders of the Winter Queen. Having Maeve shoot one of Harry's best friends might have given Harry the justification to kill her. Even so, Harry would not have killed Maeve with both Karrin and Molly so close to a loose Winter Lady mantle.

Mab couldn't bring herself to kill her daughter. Harry didn't feel he was capable of killing her, and Mac at that point was under a level of mistrust so idk that the idea of him being a 'best friend' comes into play there. And if push came to shove Harry would have killed Maeve, if he could, no matter who was standing there if he had to. Lives were still very much on the line.

     Karrin is still bound by her conscious to protect the citizens of Chicago, and Mac is well known to her. Had Maeve shot Thomas, Karrin might not have reacted so severely. She knows that Thomas can take a few hits and still survive. She might think of Mac as a vanilla mortal.

Maeve was about to shoot Harry so Karrin shot first...she didn't do it in reaction to Mac being shot. Quite a fair amount occurred between Mac's gut shot happening and Mab even showing up because Harry hadn't summoned her yet. And if anything Thomas, who is at a minimum 'close' to Karrin if only on a fringe level but immensely close to Harry whom Karrin cares for deeply, would probably evoke more of a knee-jerk reaction whether he could take the hit or not.

     Karrin was also the only one there who might have been unaware of how mantles are transferred. Had Maeve shot Karrin, it is possible that none of the others would have killed Maeve. Karrin may not have been able to return fire.

Molly sure as hell didn't. Pretty sure no one there knew really well how mantles transferred with absolute certainly, (or even that they DID transfer until Lily died and they literally saw it move into Sarissa), except Harry and even HE didn't realize till it was too late where Maeve's mantle was gonna go.

     Jim may have written this scene years ago, but could not find a good place in the other books to drop it. He may have had to develop the Nemesis infection more fully before he could allude to the idea (in Harry's mind) that Mac might be infected. This might have been the basis of Harry's mistrust of Mac.

Or having a slight bomb of the idea dropped (thanks to Sharkface) that Mac is more than he seems could do that plenty well enough. Couple with Mac's patented tight-lippedness and you've got plenty of reason for mistrust that has nothing to do with N-fection.

[Arjan]

I think the doylist purpose of Mac was to show the reader  two things:

1) How wrong Maeve had become. The importance of the unseelie accords and the special status of neutral territory was build up during earlier books and the redcap just kidnapped Mac from his pub. It was proof enough to show exactly who was infected and shooting Mac Confirmed that. Nothing is safe or sacred anymore. Everything can be violated. This insecurity leads to point two.

1) it shows how paranoid Harry had become, which shows the influence of the mantle and/or the influence of nemesis infected fairy plotting on his stressed mind.

Andy as a victim is something we are used to though she was probably kidnapped from her own house. All this creates an atmosphere of uncertainty and broken rules. Fairy tricks without fairy rules.
 

[Eldest Gruff]

I think the doylist purpose of Mac was to show the reader  two things:

1) How wrong Maeve had become. The importance of the unseelie accords and the special status of neutral territory was build up during earlier books and the redcap just kidnapped Mac from his pub. It was proof enough to show exactly who was infected and shooting Mac Confirmed that. Nothing is safe or sacred anymore. Everything can be violated. This insecurity leads to point two.

1) it shows how paranoid Harry had become, which shows the influence of the mantle and/or the influence of nemesis infected fairy plotting on his stressed mind.

Andy as a victim is something we are used to though she was probably kidnapped from her own house. All this creates an atmosphere of uncertainty and broken rules. Fairy tricks without fairy rules.

That all sounds more like 'in-universe' rationales to my eyes. Neither would have really required Mac at all in any event.

[Arjan]

That all sounds more like 'in-universe' rationales to my eyes. Neither would have really required Mac at all in any event.

But Mac is the strongest way to build that atmosphere. Mac should be in his pub providing a safe place for everyone, that was his function in the story. He is not. It is a strong way to show that everything is wrong and turning into chaos.

That is his function in this story. The same reason his pub was attacked.

[Eldest Gruff]

But Mac is the strongest way to build that atmosphere. Mac should be in his pub providing a safe place for everyone, that was his function in the story. He is not. It is a strong way to show that everything is wrong and turning into chaos.

That is his function in this story. The same reason his pub was attacked.

That is rather debatable to just be saying 'this is his function' and have done. Otherwise what is the point of all these theories surrounding who or what he really is to which even the author tells us that there is indeed something more to him that you are ascribing.

And the chaos is already there whether Mac is involved or not. The Accords and so called times when guest rights or neutral territory ought to be upheld have long since gone out the window, that's the whole point of Nemesis in the first place. These events, these hints, these ideas all exists well within the story whether Mac's gets attacked or not. And its his bar getting attacked that is the 'big deal' if there is any, not him. His bar is Switzerland and neutral but he himself is just 'out'. Being 'out' doesn't make you untouchable. Charity set aside her power and she's been tossed around physically and emotionally plenty.

On top of all that anyway, the reasons you give again illustrate Watsonian leanings more than Doylist. Mac being there because JB doesn't wanna be seen as a chauvinist who let a bunch of women get kidnapped so he added Mac in is Doylist reasoning. Mac being there because the DV is in 'chaos' and forces, events or character choices have drawn an otherwise normally uninvolved third party into the mix is Watsonian.

[Arjan]

That is rather debatable to just be saying 'this is his function' and have done.

I usually do that when things are that obvious, I point them out if they were not noticed before.

Otherwise what is the point of all these theories surrounding who or what he really is to which even the author tells us that there is indeed something more to him that you are ascribing.

See the original post. We are looking for Mac's function in the story for that scene

Mac has an overall story purpose as well. Probably several ones and some of that played a role in this scene but it was not the main purpose for this scene.

When I say Bob is a talking head in a scene I do not mean that Bob is only a talking head and never has any other function.

And the chaos is already there whether Mac is involved or not.

Mac is a victim, not the cause.

The Accords and so called times when guest rights or neutral territory ought to be upheld have long since gone out the window, that's the whole point of Nemesis in the first place.

When Mac was kidnapped Harry was still asking himself who was infected, Mab or Maeve. This should have showed him. Mac as a victim dragged from his bar shows the reader how deeply nemesis infected Maeve is (and also how dumb Lilly is if she knew about it)

These events, these hints, these ideas all exists well within the story whether Mac's gets attacked or not. And its his bar getting attacked that is the 'big deal' if there is any, not him. His bar is Switzerland and neutral but he himself is just 'out'. Being 'out' doesn't make you untouchable.

But being in the bar should and where else would he be?

Charity set aside her power and she's been tossed around physically and emotionally plenty.

Sure but what has that to do with this scene?

On top of all that anyway, the reasons you give again illustrate Watsonian leanings more than Doylist. Mac being there because JB doesn't wanna be seen as a chauvinist who let a bunch of women get kidnapped so he added Mac in is Doylist reasoning. Mac being there because the DV is in 'chaos' and forces, events or character choices have drawn an otherwise normally uninvolved third party into the mix is Watsonian.

That is not what I said.

Mac was there because it was the strongest way to show the chaos. He was not interchangeable with any other victim, he was there as a special victim, the only victim that could really show how utterly chaotic everything had become and how paranoid Harry had become. He was there for illustrative purposes.

That is enough to drag him into the story and that is what my post was about. I tried to show what made Mab special as a victim from a story writing perspective. 

[Eldest Gruff]

I usually do that when things are that obvious, I point them out if they were not noticed before.

Which again is just your assumption that this is all there is to Mac despite a fair bit evidence to the contrary.

See the original post. We are looking for Mac's function in the story for that scene

Mac has an overall story purpose as well. Probably several ones and some of that played a role in this scene but it was not the main purpose for this scene.

When I say Bob is a talking head in a scene I do not mean that Bob is only a talking head and never has any other function. Mac is a victim, not the cause.When Mac was kidnapped Harry was still asking himself who was infected, Mab or Maeve. This should have showed him. Mac as a victim dragged from his bar shows the reader how deeply nemesis infected Maeve is (and also how dumb Lilly is if she knew about it)But being in the bar should and where else would he be? Sure but what has that to do with this scene?That is not what I said.

Mac was there because it was the strongest way to show the chaos. He was not interchangeable with any other victim, he was there as a special victim, the only victim that could really show how utterly chaotic everything had become and how paranoid Harry had become. He was there for illustrative purposes.

That is enough to drag him into the story and that is what my post was about. I tried to show what made Mab special as a victim from a story writing perspective.

Except again Mac really is NOT the strongest way to show the chaos of everything anyway. You see it that way because you've fit Mac into one peg hole and are basing it entirely on what you perceive to be his 'obvious' function in the story. The fact of the matter is, the entire series and very much that whole book showed the chaos this whole time. That's the whole point of the story, is how screwed up everything that ought to be one way has been going all the while. Mac doesn't enhance that, the only thing he fuels is more fire on the theories about HIM personally.

[Tami Seven]

I think Arjan has something there. Even Sharkface was reluctant to enter Mac's Pub. Call it what you will, but Mac's has always been a Safe Haven, up until the time Mac was kidnapped.

That's like declaring war on Switzerland by kidnapping Simonetta Sommaruga.

[Eldest Gruff]

I think Arjan has something there. Even Sharkface was reluctant to enter Mac's Pub. Call it what you will, but Mac's has always been a Safe Haven, up until the time Mac was kidnapped.

That's like declaring war on Switzerland by kidnapping Simonetta Sommaruga.

Reluctant is a strong word. It implies Sharkface was somehow trying to act deferential to Mac's while in the next breath noting that he DOES attack the bar and in fact does enter it to attack some more. So I don't see much reason to call it reluctance. On top of which, by his own admission, the scene at Mac's was not really Arjan's point anyway, it was his presence on the island.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, I got the impression that Before was more concerned with what he might be facing within the pub, rather than breaking rules.  Throwing yourself into a confined space, breaking whatever supernatural enchantments there might be against using combat magic in said place, to face a formidable starborn wizard, a formidable White Court Vampire, and a man that clearly has knowledge of things, is pretty ballsy. 

I suppose that his Thrice Asked attempt at bringing Harry out might have constituted a "peaaceful" attempt, which might have done something in regards to any magical protections around the place.  Although the Outsiders are from Outside, and fundamentally different from reality, they are still adherent to the magical rules of reality (they couldn't just pass through Demonreach's defensive barrier, a Thrice Asked from Harry later made Before give up his name).  If Mac had some ward that acted similar to Harry's old wards, that somehow reduced a being's magical umph if they tried attacking, then his asking might have been to appease that.  Harry's magical attacks might not have been similarly restricted, as he was a patron defending himself. 

All theoretical nonsense, of course, because we have no reason to believe that's the case.  But it might explain why he bothered with the Thrice Asked.

[knnn]

It's the "Thrice I ask" that leads me to lean toward the "Sharkface is Cowl" theory.  Basically, Sharkface is what you get when a possessed mortal uses too much Outisder power --  he becomes a pure host to the Outsider.  Would also go toward explaining where Cowl was during the final Outsider-based showdown at the end of CD.

The only real downside of the theory is that this means we probably won't ever see "normal" Cowl again. 

[Eldest Gruff]

It's the "Thrice I ask" that leads me to lean toward the "Sharkface is Cowl" theory.  Basically, Sharkface is what you get when a possessed mortal uses too much Outisder power --  he becomes a pure host to the Outsider.  Would also go toward explaining where Cowl was during the final Outsider-based showdown at the end of CD.

The only real downside of the theory is that this means we probably won't ever see "normal" Cowl again.

Also, and I truly don't remember it occurring, but the 'Thrice I ask and done' has pretty much only worked on the 'full' for lack of a better word supernatural right? When it was introduced it was heavily Fae based because something spoken three times bound them to that obligation. I know Harry for instance in his conversation with Cowl used it...'Thrice I say and done, bite me' or something to that effect...but has it ever been used on another mortal to compel them to answer? And does it being used on Sharkface really point to Cowl being him now since, in essence, its still just a supernatural being comporting to this behavior at the end of the day even if Cowl is somewhere in there?

[knnn]

"Thrice I ask" is certainly a general supernatural thing -- Tessa uses it in SmF, as well (and I think Erlking in DB).  Heck, I believe one of the roots sources is in the Bible -- didn't Peter need to deny something three times?

Still, I do recall a WoJ along the lines of "Cowl will be in the next book" from way back when (sorry -- no sources, still looking).  Combine that with the fact that you've got all those mortal practitioners on those barges and one wonders where Cowl was (if he really is indeed aligned with the Outsiders).  If it does turn out to be Sharkface, well then we've had a nice foreshadowing.

[Griffyn612]

Except that Cowl had mortal magic, and Sharkface was quite clearly not mortal.  He also didn't exhibit any of the same magical signature, or Harry would have recognized it.

My guess is that Before possessed Vitto Malvora before or during the events of WHITE NIGHT, and took control of whatever was left of him after the finale.  That would mean the mortal host body destroyed at the end of COLD DAYS was what was left of Malvora, and Before has to go find a new host body to operate from.

Remember that Malvora was the one to use the psychic whammy in WHITE NIGHT while possessed by an Outsider, and Harry even comments in Mac's bar that he'd faced a similar whammy before, referring to the Deeps episode.  That would make Before responsible for 3 similar psychic whammies, kind of like his go-to trick.

[dspringer1]

•   Justine:  Her presence enabled Maeve to inform the reader that Lara is clean of Nemfection.-Second Aristh
•   Sarissa:  See Molly above.
•   Mac:  Huh... Um why WAS he there?

Justine was NOT to say that Lara is free of Nemfection, as we have already had quotes that imply she is infected.  Who says Maeve has any real insight other than to know Lara is a good target.  Given Maeve "could" cure herself, why give her more info than needed.   However, Justine's involvement has been there in a lot of Dresden books, always in these modest support roles.   I think the groundwork is being set for her to play a more significant role - or set her up as a very tragic death.   

The most important thing about Mac on Demonreach is the way his actions are different than those in his pub when Sharkface the Outsider shows up.

In his pub, he actively gets weapons and tells Harry to kill the Outsiders.  He knows about Outsiders and wants them dead.  He does not act passively.  On Demonreach, Mac is back to standing around waiting for things to happen.  He does not join the fight nor does he provide any commentary that would be helpful.  He simply does not offend. My assumption on his shooting is different.  Nemesis gets a nice clean shot at him.  Maeve thinks she is going to win, so no need to kill him quickly.  However, she does put him out of commission.  I think this comes from Nemesis in knowing who/what Mac is from an Outsider perspective (my base assumption is that Nemesis and the Outsiders act in concert - though we have no absolute proof of that).

Mac has stated he is "Out" and you can hear the capital letters.   Some other comments imply he is Watching, again with the capital letter in Watching.   Who or why he is watching is unknown.   It is clear that he is NOT supposed to impact events.   This gives some explanation of both his actions and why he is there.

1) He fights against outsiders as they are "outside" and thus probably in another category.  Ie - it is a loophole in the rules that normally keep him neutral.  I am guessing that watching is linked to non-interference.  Same reason he could not fight the fey - they are part of our world and probably no loophole exists.   And he stays quiet as even providing information is interfering.  Although even against the outsiders Mac showed no real supernatural powers although clearly he had them.  So maybe the outsider loophole is limited.   

2) Mac's biggest interference was with Harry giving advice in Changes -- and that was limited to saying the choice is important.   That is a man who is very careful about impacts.    But note that Mac could perform first aid, assist Sarissa/Justine and help move people.  It may be that he can do some things to help people(another loophole), but how big a loophole is not clear.   

3) I think the reason Mac was here (meta-story wise) is that Dresden needs to learn to pay attention to Mac.  He gets a few hints Mac is different in earlier books, but this is the first book where it is really obvious that Mac is really worth paying attention to as he is NOT a small player.  Not necessarily a threat, but important and potentially a source of knowledge/power that Harry might need in the future.