Notes on Optimization

[Taran]

Good aspects and lots of compels is actually good meta gaming.

You just have to be careful if a particular compel is going to cost you more than the FP you earned.

[Cadd]

Connected to what Taran wrote: as a GM, my players current stock of fate points play into how I do my compels.

A compel like what you describe, toturi, against someone out of fate points is generally something I'd consider a douchebag move. A (GM-initiated) compel making a PC effectively useless in a conflict is really only OK in my eyes if it lets another PC get some spotlight after not having had any for a while. I'd actually still want the target of the compel to have a FP available to buy out of it if the player just does not like the complication.

Remember: Compels aren't there to screw over the PCs, they are there to make the story interesting and fun by adding complications.

[Haru]

For most other games, I'd agree that specialisation is a very good idea. For DFRPG and Fate games, I am not certain it is such a good idea.

I feel like it's even more important. Or maybe to put it another way: it's good to specialize in what you aren't good at. What I mean by that is, you should have a good idea of your characters blind spots and have some good ways available to compel on them. Since they are areas you are absolutely not good at, you don't have to bother spending any skills on them and just take them head on. In return, you can be brilliant at what you're good at. As long as you and your group understand that sucking at something doesn't have to mean the death of your character, that makes for a natural rise and fall in your story.
Or at least it's that way in theory. I constantly forget to compel myself, though I'm trying to get better at that.

[Sanctaphrax]

In my experience, as long as you avoid overlapping skills you don't have to worry too much about over-specialization.

Suppose you want to be an awesome martial artist. You need high Fists and decent Endurance, but everything else you'll buy costs Refresh rather than skill points. So no matter how much you specialize in martial arts, you'll still have room for some Deceit or Resources or Craftsmanship or whatever.

Like I said in the first post, I recommend "a character who's great at multiple mostly-unrelated things, so they can be effective in a wide variety of situations". Much better than a character who's mediocre at everything, or great at a bunch of heavily-overlapping things.

[toturi]

Good aspects and lots of compels is actually good meta gaming.

You just have to be careful if a particular compel is going to cost you more than the FP you earned.

As I read the Compel rules, the more a particular compel isn't going to cost you more than the FP you earned, then it is more likely it is Compel unworthy.

I feel like it's even more important. Or maybe to put it another way: it's good to specialize in what you aren't good at. What I mean by that is, you should have a good idea of your characters blind spots and have some good ways available to compel on them. Since they are areas you are absolutely not good at, you don't have to bother spending any skills on them and just take them head on. In return, you can be brilliant at what you're good at. As long as you and your group understand that sucking at something doesn't have to mean the death of your character, that makes for a natural rise and fall in your story.
Or at least it's that way in theory. I constantly forget to compel myself, though I'm trying to get better at that.

So that means that if I as the GM see that you are likely to not succeed in a course of action, then I won't offer a Compel on that course of action. It is simply just not Compel worthy unless that Compel puts you in an even worse situation that if you had pick up the dice rolled and failed.

[Haru]

So that means that if I as the GM see that you are likely to not succeed in a course of action, then I won't offer a Compel on that course of action. It is simply just not Compel worthy unless that Compel puts you in an even worse situation that if you had pick up the dice rolled and failed.

If you are playing GM vs. Players, yes, but that's not going to be fun for too long, in my experience.

The idea is more along the lines of "There's an easy way and a hard way. Too bad [circumstances] force you to take the hard way."

[toturi]

If you are playing GM vs. Players, yes, but that's not going to be fun for too long, in my experience.

The idea is more along the lines of "There's an easy way and a hard way. Too bad [circumstances] force you to take the hard way."

One of the best tests of optimisation is asking yourself, "If my GM goes full a-hole, how long can my character survive?"

And even if you do not assume an adversarial GM, you should also at least assume that the GM is going strictly by the RAW.

[Taran]

As I read the Compel rules, the more a particular compel isn't going to cost you more than the FP you earned, then it is more likely it is Compel unworthy.
So that means that if I as the GM see that you are likely to not succeed in a course of action, then I won't offer a Compel on that course of action. It is simply just not Compel worthy unless that Compel puts you in an even worse situation that if you had pick up the dice rolled and failed.

Taking a compel that will cost you 3 fp's is just bad strategy.  It's way more efficient to pay off the compel.

If I have an aspect of 'not so subtle' and want to break into a house, I might try to pick the lock.  Or I could be compelled to smash the door down.  This is a fine compel and it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be in deep shit but it certainly means your objective of getting in quietly is out the window and is going to make your objective way harder - which may cost you more fp's...but  you'll probably also get a bunch more compels in the on-coming storm.

I wouldn't compel someone to bash the door down and then have 10 baddies come on them so hard they have to burn their reserves of FP's.  Instead, though, I might push things hard enough that they they might not have as many resources to face the main objective...but they may have a few extra fp's as a consolation.

Edit:  and I should point out that taking that compel should be FUN and INTERESTING. It doesn't necessarily have to be harder....but it could definitely complicate things.  Maybe it just throws them off their objective.  You're about to do your main objective when you get a phone call saying you have to go bail someone out of a tight situation.  Doesn't cost you anything, but it creates an interesting side-story.

EDIT2:  |But....we are derailing this thread.

[Sanctaphrax]

New idea: post an un-optimized character here, and we'll talk about how it can be strengthened.

[Taran]

Why don't you start with some of the characters from the paranet papers or Your Story?

[Sanctaphrax]

Sure. Which ones do you recommend?

[PirateJack]

I'd kill to have a Morgan write up that's as badass as he is in the books.

[Theogony_IX]

I am very much interested in this new idea, especially with characters from the books since I'm familiar with who they are already.

EDIT: Grammars

[Sanctaphrax]

If you want a more badass Morgan writeup, check out Deadmanwalking's. Maybe add some Mental Toughness to it now that that's a thing.

Anyway, optimization-wise Morgan's biggest problems are his number of wasted specializations and his needlessly-high Weapons skill. To strengthen him I'd swap Weapons and Discipline, then replace his current specialization set-up with

Evocation (earth, fire, spirit): +3 earth control, +2 earth power, +1 spirit control
Thaumautrgy: +1 crafting strength

which frees up 3.5 Refinements. I'd invest the savings in a defensive enchanted item, a strong offensive earth focus, and maybe an Intimidation stunt or a secondary focus in crafting or Inhuman Mental Toughness.

Assuming he's got a valid pyramid, he's rocking at least 52 skill points. If his cap is Fantastic he should absolutely take advantage of that, but even if it's not he should probably raise another skill to Superb. Maybe Intimidation or Lore. To make room, I think I'd raise Alertness by 1 and drop Rapport by 2.

Strictly speaking, he'd probably be better off dropping swordsmanship completely and swapping earth for spirit. And some non-Wizard stuff, like 1-Refresh Supernatural Toughness, would be really useful. But I don't want to change his concept.

Thoughts?

[Taran]

I'm not sure how I am at optimization, but I took this character (which was a waist deep NPC that Sanctaphrax created for me), and booted him to Submerged as a PC.

There was discussion around how I could make him better but we settled on 'less than optimal' characters.  He's designed to be the social character in the group.  I'm curious to see how someone else would have boosted him.

It is Fu in my sig.

Thoughts?

I formatted my computer and all my pdf's are still sitting idle on a backup drive...so I don't have Morgan's stats in front of me.  Dropping swordsmanship wouldn't be good, though, because as you said, it would change his concept too much.

I agree the books spread the refinements out inefficiently.