He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]

[knnn]

When it comes to Hecate we've already got three 'conflicting' notions. First Welcome to the Jungle has her ascending this way from a human, or thereabouts iirc. Then Bob offhandedly mentions in DM or BR about big dormant Gods who are still around and brings up Hecate. Now we have SG which has of course given rise to the idea that she is an aspect of power surrounding the six Queens of Faerie, possibly sacrificed on the Table. So...its all conjecture now anyway. Some seem more likely than others.

^this^.   In addition, you've got to remember that it's Bob who states that Hecate used an ascension ritual in Welcome to the Jungle.   Given that in GP he seems to think she is currently dormant, I wonder how much we can truly rely on his assertions.

[megarows]

Missed that DM ref.  That's definitely a contradiction between DM and the common reading of SG.  And I am so not going there with some time travel or mirror universe thing.  WttJ doesn't contradict either.

I think Bob just gets kicked every time the lore "evolves" in newer books.  (Knights of the Blackened Denarius?)

[peregrine]

I never thought that Hecate was killed on the table, but rather that she somehow split/was split into the assorted Queens.  The triad aspect seems much stronger than you'd think if it was something as simple as a power grab.

[Quantus]

Missed that DM ref.  That's definitely a contradiction between DM and the common reading of SG.  And I am so not going there with some time travel or mirror universe thing.  WttJ doesn't contradict either.

Also keep in mind that Hecate was a Triple Goddess, and so could have easily been the "proto-Queens" in some regard, having already been split that far, so that the only "modern" change is that they/she further split into Summer/Winter halves, presumably when they took over The Gates and thus needed the current system of Checks and Balances.  Granted I dont know how easily it will be to reconcile that with Mother Winter's Moirai role.  But then we have proof that one entity can be multiple deities, so it's not too crazy.

[namkcas]

If you're interested in the lore here, I think reading Into the Jungle would be relevant to your interest

I don't read any of it.  I listen to audiobooks, which makes almost no sense with comics.  My take on the way things go in terms of relevance:

1 - WoJ: However, they tend to be quite fae-like and often not specific.
2 - Novels: Later is better than earlier.  There are some number of retcons and changes to things.
3 - Short Stories:  Most of them seem to be more "fun" than part of the lore.  Mistakes can be made.
4 - Comics: See 3.
5 - TV Show:  Well it has to go somewhere.
6 - Fan Fiction/Speculation:  What I am trying to say with all the work that we do, it can all be wiped out by one piece of verbage from JB.  There are quite a large number of theories about different things.  Many of them directly contradict one another AND have ways of tying to the lore.  There are things that will likely never be reconciled.  Will we ever find out who fixed LC?   Who ran Harry off the road?  What was the grand plot behind the attack on AT?  I have theories on all of them, but none of them can be proven.  For example, we recently discussed Maggie spending her summer vacation on DR (which I still don't know where Quantus got that nugget from).  EG and I were discussing why Maggie might not be affected by the bad vibes.  I see where that makes sense from an author's standpoint, but struggle to find a way for it to come out of what has been written about DR.

[Mr. Death]

I think it's more likely that Hecate came first and became the Fae queens than that Hecate was sacrificed to the Fae queens.

[megarows]

I don't read any of it.  I listen to audiobooks, which makes almost no sense with comics.  My take on the way things go in terms of relevance:

1 - WoJ: However, they tend to be quite fae-like and often not specific.
2 - Novels: Later is better than earlier.  There are some number of retcons and changes to things.
3 - Short Stories:  Most of them seem to be more "fun" than part of the lore.  Mistakes can be made.
4 - Comics: See 3.
5 - TV Show:  Well it has to go somewhere.
6 - Fan Fiction/Speculation:  What I am trying to say with all the work that we do, it can all be wiped out by one piece of verbage from JB.  There are quite a large number of theories about different things.  Many of them directly contradict one another AND have ways of tying to the lore.  There are things that will likely never be reconciled.  Will we ever find out who fixed LC?   Who ran Harry off the road?  What was the grand plot behind the attack on AT?  I have theories on all of them, but none of them can be proven.  For example, we recently discussed Maggie spending her summer vacation on DR (which I still don't know where Quantus got that nugget from).  EG and I were discussing why Maggie might not be affected by the bad vibes.  I see where that makes sense from an author's standpoint, but struggle to find a way for it to come out of what has been written about DR.

Fair enough.

[Serack]

BTW Quantus, I spliced in a link to the original source of the image of the knife you were referring to in Reply #9

I keep that link tucked under "Random Interwebs coolness involving Jim" in the official all time WoJ index that hasn't been updated much the past year or so...  (although checking, it does have links to the topics containing the newer links... so it isn't as out of date as I feared...)

[knnn]

BTW Quantus, I spliced in a link to the original source of the image of the knife you were referring to in Reply #9

It might be also be tangentially worth pointing out that Jim actually mentions "looking up information about undead dinosaurs and coming across a reference to the Spear of Destiny" in one of his interviews.

[kazimmoinuddin]

 It could be that all of Bobs answers were true for a given value of truth, either to obscure stuff, or simply lost in translation of magical lore. Like there are like to beings that are both living and dead, so multiple answers on if they can be killed.

[Slowpool]

While i do think the knife is the spear i don't think invulnerability is its power. Simply from a storytelling perspective giving your hero invincibility removes way to much tension, plus there's the fact that nic already has an artifact that shields him from almost all harm with the noose.

I think the blades power is actually the counter to inviolability, it can kill virtually anything. It could be argued that the spear perceiving him is what killed christ, and if the spear was able to keep the son of god dead for 3 days im willing to beat it can keep anything short of that down a lot longer. given this power it would be no wonder nic would want to get his hands on it, and i think i know who he planed to use it on.

if jim follows the pattern of every 5 books for nic showing up we will see him again right before the end trilogy and im betting the event to kick off that is nic stealing the knife and using it to kill one of the beings who has stood in his way time after time uriel.

Didn't the spear not actually kill Christ?  I thought He was dead of the rigors of crucifixion first, and then Longinus stabbed Him in the side to make sure He was dead.  And He was.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mith]

 Apparently so.  Most stories I have heard always take the stance that the Lance was basically what killed him, as he was only on the Cross for a few hours.

[Quantus]

2 - Novels: Later is better than earlier.  There are some number of retcons and changes to things.

Help me out here.  Ive been seeing this statement made more and more often these days, and it's got me a little confuse.  What retcons? I know of the tweak to Ivy where she doesnt literally know ever single thing that has ever been spoken (though Oral History still seems to be in her purview).  And I know of the simple mistakes like Molly's age or the name of Bianca's Assistant.  But people are making it sound like he's been re-writing and revising things left and right like a long lived comic book character (Wolverine has no bone claws you whippersnappers!).  But Im not aware of anything that significant or numerous? 

For example, we recently discussed Maggie spending her summer vacation on DR (which I still don't know where Quantus got that nugget from).

It was a recent and very brief interview on Beard and Bean, I believe while at SausomeCon.  I got it from facebook, so unfortunately I dont have a link I can post.

Didn't the spear not actually kill Christ?  I thought He was dead of the rigors of crucifixion first, and then Longinus stabbed Him in the side to make sure He was dead.  And He was.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Dredging from my Sunday School memories, but the big deal with the spear was that it preserved the circumstances of a prophesy (of which I remember nothing else).  Crucifixion often took days to actually kill the person.  It was common practice to break their lets after a bit, which because of their raised arm hanging position would actually strangle them on their own collarbone.  The prophesy stated that he would die without any broken bones, however.  Longinus was sent up to break his legs, but for some reason chose to stab him instead.  In doing so he "preserved the Divinity of Christ" and created the last of "the Five Holy Wounds" (the others all being Nail Wounds. 

BTW Quantus, I spliced in a link to the original source of the image of the knife you were referring to in Reply #9

I keep that link tucked under "Random Interwebs coolness involving Jim" in the official all time WoJ index that hasn't been updated much the past year or so...  (although checking, it does have links to the topics containing the newer links... so it isn't as out of date as I feared...)

Ah, coolness.  It was giving me trouble linking to it (though it might have been do to the content filters Im stuck behind at work) so I dropped in into photobucket.  But then Photobocket had to go and "improve" (translation "Break") their link code functionality for a while. I think its back up and running now. 

[Mr. Death]

Help me out here.  Ive been seeing this statement made more and more often these days, and it's got me a little confuse.  What retcons? I know of the tweak to Ivy where she doesnt literally know ever single thing that has ever been spoken (though Oral History still seems to be in her purview).  And I know of the simple mistakes like Molly's age or the name of Bianca's Assistant.  But people are making it sound like he's been re-writing and revising things left and right like a long lived comic book character (Wolverine has no bone claws you whippersnappers!).  But Im not aware of anything that significant or numerous?

Not just Ivy's knowledge, but also how she became the Archive. In Death Masks, she says that when her mother gave birth, she went into a persistent vegetative state, and that that was how the Archive always passed from one to another -- at the new Archive's birth. In Small Favor, the story's completely different -- that Ivy's mother killed herself while still pregnant, that the Archive passes upon the death of the previous Archive, and Ivy's situation is wholly different and unprecedented.

[Quantus]

Not just Ivy's knowledge, but also how she became the Archive. In Death Masks, she says that when her mother gave birth, she went into a persistent vegetative state, and that that was how the Archive always passed from one to another -- at the new Archive's birth. In Small Favor, the story's completely different -- that Ivy's mother killed herself while still pregnant, that the Archive passes upon the death of the previous Archive, and Ivy's situation is wholly different and unprecedented.

So nothing besides the rejiggering of the Archive?