He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]

[Quantus]

Besides, Harry's staff will always have a knob at the end so long as he is the one holding it 

Well played, sir 

[canpinter]

While i do think the knife is the spear i don't think invulnerability is its power. Simply from a storytelling perspective giving your hero invincibility removes way to much tension, plus there's the fact that nic already has an artifact that shields him from almost all harm with the noose.

I think the blades power is actually the counter to inviolability, it can kill virtually anything. It could be argued that the spear perceiving him is what killed christ, and if the spear was able to keep the son of god dead for 3 days im willing to beat it can keep anything short of that down a lot longer. given this power it would be no wonder nic would want to get his hands on it, and i think i know who he planed to use it on.

if jim follows the pattern of every 5 books for nic showing up we will see him again right before the end trilogy and im betting the event to kick off that is nic stealing the knife and using it to kill one of the beings who has stood in his way time after time uriel.

[Quantus]

While i do think the knife is the spear i don't think invulnerability is its power. Simply from a storytelling perspective giving your hero invincibility removes way to much tension, plus there's the fact that nic already has an artifact that shields him from almost all harm with the noose.

Perhaps not "invulnerability" persay which as you say is too absolute to be much use in a storytelling sense, but perhaps the sort fo ridiculous good fortune that the Knights sometimes get.  Or simply a benevolent version of an Entropy Curse?


That being said, I do like the idea of it being able to Kill things better (immortals without a conjunction perhaps) as a thematic extension of it's role in the Crusafixtion.  Somebody mentioned once the Idea that the Placard will be significant because it would symbolically bear the Name of Christ.  If we look at the rest of the artifact those themes it make sense too: the healing shroud preserved his Body while he was out (traditionally on Soul Walkabout in Purgatory iirc) similar to Mab and DR for Harry; the Swords restrained him and now they restrain the Supernatural Powers of monsters so that the Knights can fight them evenly (per SmF).  The Grail that "received the Blood of Christ" may well have been used as a sort of temporary container to hold Christ's Power (the Mantle of the WG unless I miss my guess).

[canpinter]

also when i say i think the knife can kill an immortal i mean it can also kill the mantel that immortal holds, kill mab with it and there will be no winter queen again, think of the chaos that would cause

[Quantus]

also when i say i think the knife can kill an immortal i mean it can also kill the mantel that immortal holds, kill mab with it and there will be no winter queen again, think of the chaos that would cause

That's supposed to be Impossible, per the Mothers in SK.  Mantles=Power=Conservation of Energy and all that.  But a weapon that is essentially a portable Conjunction that allows Immortals to Die (and then their mantles do whatever that particular kind of Mantle does: move, scatter, go dormant, etc) would be a hell of a Game-Changer

[KurtinStGeorge]

If the blade is the point of the Spear of Longinus, I understand why some of us are thinking about Harry turning his staff into a spear, but what about the other artifacts?  Does anyone have any ideas about how the Shroud, the Crown of Thorns or the sign with INRI could be used as weapons by Harry?  (I assume Nicodemus will try to use the Grail to power some kind of curse.) 

Harry said he would research the items.  Has anyone done any research on the any of the other items?  The Shroud seem less like a weapon then something you would use to bring back a fallen comrade.  (Of course there will be catch to using it.  Probably Harry will only be able to use it once and he will be forced to decide between Murphy and someone else, someone more vital to defeating the Outsiders.)  The Crown of Thorns may have different symbolic meanings, but I'm not seeing how it could be a weapon and I have no idea about the sign.   

[Eldest Gruff]

If the blade is the point of the Spear of Longinus, I understand why some of us are thinking about Harry turning his staff into a spear, but what about the other artifacts?  Does anyone have any ideas about how the Shroud, the Crown of Thorns or the sign with INRI could be used as weapons by Harry?  (I assume Nicodemus will try to use the Grail to power some kind of curse.) 

Harry said he would research the items.  Has anyone done any research on the any of the other items?  The Shroud seem less like a weapon then something you would use to bring back a fallen comrade.  (Of course there will be catch to using it.  Probably Harry will only be able to use it once and he will be forced to decide between Murphy and someone else, someone more vital to defeating the Outsiders.)  The Crown of Thorns may have different symbolic meanings, but I'm not seeing how it could be a weapon and I have no idea about the sign.   

Umm just spitballing but...maybe the Crown serves as a sort of insulation against veils, glamours, mental attacks or black magic backlash similar to the Blackstaff? Anything 'mind' or mentally related, protecting your senses. Maybe enhances them or allows for a level of precognition or foresight? Enhances and insulates the Sight possibly? Insulates against soulgazes or staring too long into the eyes of your opponent?

Placard perhaps allows one complete control over a being without knowing their true name, or perhaps instinctively allows you to have their true name? If part of a summoning perhaps it protects YOU as the summoner from having your name used against you or allows you to be shielded from those who discover it?

Idk.

[Phariah]

just guessing here. using my vast MMO gaming experience and DnD lore/ knowledge base.

 Thorn Crown :Christ was given the Crown before his march w/ the Cross. could it have some type of enh stamina/ endurance thing, pain suppression, damage mitigation? sort of like the Winter Mantle but not coming from the individual but the faith magic. something cleansing like also might fit. also was supposed to be a joke calling him the king of the Jews. might it also project and aura that aids/ supports allies?

Shroud of Turin : healing and resurrection I am thinking. they way I see it maybe the one previously seen is not the true Shroud but one of 2 other possibilities. one is a wrap used to cover a persons head before they are enshrouded. the other is the cloth used by the woman who wiped Jesus' face on his march w/ the Cross. this would explain why the Shroud did not work on Persephone, it was not the true Shroud. it might have the faith juice but not the true power of resurrection imbued within the one Harry just got. makes me wonder if he will try it on her to test it and get Marcone to owe him again.

the Plaque. : wonder if it some type of item that would allow someone to learn the true name of someone, even it's pronunciation. used in sealing someone or their powers, bind them/ entrap them.

the Knife/ Spearhead of Longinus : standard myth is it allows the user to become unbeatable. I think it is like Quantus was saying. something like and anti-entropy curse thingy. if anyone is a Marvel fan out you will recognize these two, Longshot and Domino, they had probability altering fields which had things go the right way for them in random situations. also the thing about it being able to kill anything even god-like beings fits it also.

Chalice : most myths involving this talk about healing/ rejuvenation/ immortality. wonder if this would be able to cleanse Black Magic taint or used to help Harry get rid of the WK Mantle?

just some WAGs but think a few might be close.

[kazimmoinuddin]

 These items are likely powered by soulfire, so even the fallen would be very vulnerable to them, as well as outsiders.

[groinkick]

That's supposed to be Impossible, per the Mothers in SK.  Mantles=Power=Conservation of Energy and all that.  But a weapon that is essentially a portable Conjunction that allows Immortals to Die (and then their mantles do whatever that particular kind of Mantle does: move, scatter, go dormant, etc) would be a hell of a Game-Changer

What about Mother Winters deal she gave to Harry that can undo any magic?  I bet that could undo a Mantle..  Anyways why would it mess up conservation of energy?  Destroying a Mantle would just be dispersing the energy to a form that wasn't a Mantle...  Think of a jar filled with water.  If you break the jar the water isn't destroyed.  It's just not in the container anymore.

[kazimmoinuddin]

Didnt michael kill a dragon with his sword? That might mean it is a mantle killer item.

[isoycrazy]

I think in the right place and right time, a Sword of the Cross could transform a mantle into a new shape and type of energy.  Only He could outright break the laws of reality and muffle consequences.

[Mr. Death]

Didnt michael kill a dragon with his sword? That might mean it is a mantle killer item.

Not everything is a mantle. There's no reason to suspect dragons are.

[megarows]

These items are likely powered by soulfire, so even the fallen would be very vulnerable to them, as well as outsiders.

I dunno, Anduriel and friends lost soulfire with their little teenage rebellion, and Nicodemus still wanted them.

Conservation of Energy

That doesn't mean matter is indestructible, simply that mass and energy are conserved, and that mass is converted to a proportional amount of energy.  Literally, E=m*c^2.

eg, an electron and positron combine in an antimatter annihilation reaction.  The matter is destroyed, and converted to energy in the form of a high-energy photon (gamma radiation).

In the same way, a rechargeable battery that has been depleted has very slightly less mass than one with a full charge.  Because some of the mass has been converted into electrical energy to perform work.  (it's nothing you can measure on a scale)

If these laws of physics apply to mantles, then energy drawn from them either decreases their total amount of potential energy, or their mass.

[vultur]

I think all 3 "significant" knives are separate items:
-the athame Lea got, Morgan le Fey's per WoJ, vector for N-fection & some kind of power
-Medea's bodkin, Harry used it to kill Slate
-the knife in Hades' Vault