Deceit: False Face Forward - Need Help

[Taran]

It feels a bit muddy, so I'd like to hear how people use it.

(click to show/hide)

You may opt to use Deceit instead of Rapport
to as a defense in social conflicts—such as when
defending against someone using Empathy to
get a “read” on you, or facing down an insult—
to lull an opponent into underestimating you.
This defense roll is modified (page 214) by the
Rapport skill.
If you lose this defense roll, then your opponent
may proceed as usual—in attempting to
hide yourself, you have blundered and revealed
a truth, shown an unintentional reaction, or
something similar.
If you win the defense, however, you may
make your successful defense look like a failure.
When you do this, you can provide false information
to the would-be “victor” (such as, “Wow!
That insult really struck home!” when it didn’t).
In the case of an Empathy read attempt, you
may provide a false aspect to the reader, sending
him off with an utterly fabricated notion of you.
When he later tries to take advantage of an
aspect that he falsely thinks is there, it can end
up being a waste of a fate point or worse! (See
“Guessing Aspects,” page 113.)

1. You can use it to give a "false Aspect" when someone tries to do an empathy read.  How do you deal with 'false aspects'?
  - do you need to spend a fp to invoke it or is it a free tag?
  - when does the aspect come into play - when can you invoke it?

2.  Can you use false Face Forward to defend maneuvers and attacks?
example:
   Bob uses intimidate to put 'shaken' on his Allen.  Can Allen use False Face Forward to defend and make it seem like he's 'shaken' when he's really not? Or make it look like you've taken a consequence against an attack when you haven't?   If so, how do you proceed from there? 


Our group has been discussing it a bit and I will eventually put up the different interpretations but I'd like to see how people do it themselves first.  The 'guessing aspects' page just seems to muddle the problem because it makes no mention of how to use free tags or whether you even get them.

[blackstaff67]

Depends in the user of FFF tricked/won a contest against someone she'd later fight.  Aspects like 'hyper-sensitive' could help in a Social conflict; 'Quick to Anger' or 'Dense and Dull as Stone' could be used in most any conflict to defend.  Hasn't come up very often in my games so I'd treat them as semi-sticky, lasting several scenes until either the NPC has reason to ignore the Aspect or it actually gets used.  Expecting the Aspect to last any significant length of game time would probably be out of the question unless the Deceiver went out of her way to 'reinforce' the Aspect; continually cringing before a known bully all the time, pretending towards one behavior while really another, etc.

[Saracen]

It feels a bit muddy, so I'd like to hear how people use it.

Cat and Mouse is muddier. 

(click to show/hide)

You may opt to use Deceit instead of Rapport
to as a defense in social conflicts—such as when
defending against someone using Empathy to
get a “read” on you, or facing down an insult—
to lull an opponent into underestimating you.
This defense roll is modified (page 214) by the
Rapport skill.
If you lose this defense roll, then your opponent
may proceed as usual—in attempting to
hide yourself, you have blundered and revealed
a truth, shown an unintentional reaction, or
something similar.
If you win the defense, however, you may
make your successful defense look like a failure.
When you do this, you can provide false information
to the would-be “victor” (such as, “Wow!
That insult really struck home!” when it didn’t).
In the case of an Empathy read attempt, you
may provide a false aspect to the reader, sending
him off with an utterly fabricated notion of you.
When he later tries to take advantage of an
aspect that he falsely thinks is there, it can end
up being a waste of a fate point or worse! (See
“Guessing Aspects,” page 113.)

1. You can use it to give a "false Aspect" when someone tries to do an empathy read.  How do you deal with 'false aspects'?
  - do you need to spend a fp to invoke it or is it a free tag?
  - when does the aspect come into play - when can you invoke it?

1a) I think the normal rules can apply? Free tag immediately after "discovering" it, use a fate point otherwise.
1b) From the moment it's "discovered" till the moment it's "discovered false", I would say, or do you mean something else with the question?

2.  Can you use false Face Forward to defend maneuvers and attacks?
example:
   Bob uses intimidate to put 'shaken' on his Allen.  Can Allen use False Face Forward to defend and make it seem like he's 'shaken' when he's really not? Or make it look like you've taken a consequence against an attack when you haven't?   If so, how do you proceed from there? 

The description says "You may opt to use Deceit instead of Rapport as a defense in social conflicts", so why not? I think defending against maneuvers is a given. Against attacks, I can see an argument for both "yes" and "no", but I would lean towards allowing it. Consequences are simply negative aspects, after all, so I think they should count where the "providing a false aspect" move comes into play. As for how to proceed from there, this passage from the "guessing aspect" chapter describes it pretty well:

(click to show/hide)

In the worst case scenario, your guess misses
the mark because you’ve been duped. This will
most often happen as the result of a Deceit
action (see page 126), although it might arise from
other circumstances. In such a case, the deceiver
can either return the spent fate point to you or
leave it spent.
If he leaves it spent, you just learned you were
duped—you don’t get the benefit of tagging the
aspect, but you’ve learned something significant
about your target. The deceiver does not get this
spent fate point for himself, either—it’s simply
gone.
If the deceiver returns the fate point to you,
things may actually be a bit worse for you—the
deceiver gets to place a temporary aspect on you
(and tag it), representing how he managed to
snooker you.

Just replace "your guess" with "your tagging of the aspect".

[Taran]

1a) I think the normal rules can apply? Free tag immediately after "discovering" it, use a fate point otherwise.
1b) From the moment it's "discovered" till the moment it's "discovered false", I would say, or do you mean something else with the question?

Well, when does the deceiver have access to the aspect?  Immediately as soon as he 'creates' it or only when the duped party tries to invoke it?  At what point does the duped realize he's been duped, if at all?

As for how to proceed from there, this passage from the "guessing aspect" chapter describes it pretty well:

(click to show/hide)

In the worst case scenario, your guess misses
the mark because you’ve been duped. This will
most often happen as the result of a Deceit
action (see page 126), although it might arise from
other circumstances. In such a case, the deceiver
can either return the spent fate point to you or
leave it spent.
If he leaves it spent, you just learned you were
duped—you don’t get the benefit of tagging the
aspect, but you’ve learned something significant
about your target. The deceiver does not get this
spent fate point for himself, either—it’s simply
gone.
If the deceiver returns the fate point to you,
things may actually be a bit worse for you—the
deceiver gets to place a temporary aspect on you
(and tag it), representing how he managed to
snooker you.

Just replace "your guess" with "your tagging of the aspect".

There's the argument that this leaves a person with a huge penalty.  Example: If I think I'm going to be able to tag something for a +2 then learn I'm actually suffering a -2...  Like in the event where the deceiver attacks, and I choose to use the false aspect to defend.  At that point you learn the aspect is false and, instead, the deceiver tags that aspect for an additional +2.  You're effectively 4 shifts lower than where you thought you'd be on your defense.

Unless you make sure it's for 2 separate rolls:  I think I'm going to get a +2 but I don't get it.  Later on, on a separate roll, my opponent uses that against me for a +2.

Also,

If he leaves it spent, you just learned you were
duped—you don’t get the benefit of tagging the
aspect, but you’ve learned something significant
about your target.

if you choose to leave a free tag, what 'advantage' does the deceiver get?  It's not like the guy is down a FP.  What is the 'significant' thing you've learned from the deceiver?

Note:  I'm not trying to disagree here, I'm just trying to clarify and present different arguments.

[Taran]

double post

I think I'm getting it.  When you create an aspect, you can tag it for 'free'.  You can create aspects through:
- assessments
- declarations
- maneuvers
- buying an aspect with a FP

FFF essentially theft.   It allows you to steal the tag from the aspect the person created.  The person thinks they've created an aspect, but either the aspect doesn't exist or it doesn't exist in the way they thought it did.  The deceiver uses this to his advantage by stealing the tag the other person would have gotten.

In the case of creating an aspect with a FP, you can't steal the FP AND steal the tag because you're essentially draining 4 shifts from your opponent.  Instead, you have to choose one:  Give back the FP and steal the tag OR leave the FP spent but receive no tag(essentially only stealing a 2-shifts).  The advantage for not taking the tag is the deceiver has drained a FP from the opponent.  If you choose to give back the FP, the opponent can always use that FP against you when you use your new free tag.

In the case of no FP's, you simply steal the tag.

The advantage the opponent gets when you choose to leave the FP spent is they know the aspect is false and that they're being duped because they got no tag from their Fate Point expenditure.

Does this make sense or am I way off?

[Saracen]

Disclaimer: This is an answer to the previous post. I will take a look at the new one later on, sorry. Gotta run.

Well, when does the deceiver have access to the aspect?  Immediately as soon as he 'creates' it or only when the duped party tries to invoke it?  At what point does the duped realize he's been duped, if at all?

My understanding is that the deceiver does not "have access" to the fake aspect. He can't do anything with it unless the deceived tries to invoke it. Then he can either have the deceived waste the fate point (which disappears) or give it back and basically replace the fake aspect with a temporary one he actually has access to (since he can invoke it). The deceived realizes he's been duped whenever he tries to take advantage of the aspect. I can't think of any other way at the moment, at least without delving into metagaming (which I dislike).

There's the argument that this leaves a person with a huge penalty.  Example: If I think I'm going to be able to tag something for a +2 then learn I'm actually suffering a -2...  Like in the event where the deceiver attacks, and I choose to use the false aspect to defend.  At that point you learn the aspect is false and, instead, the deceiver tags that aspect for an additional +2.  You're effectively 4 shifts lower than where you thought you'd be on your defense.

That sounds about right, with the addendum that I would think that the deceiver could choose not to tag the aspect immediately (and to be nitpicky, it's the new temporary aspect instead of the fake aspect, but mechanically it's the same, in your example). Do you think it's too much? I think it fits, narratively speaking. It's basically a double-trap. The deceived thinks he has an advantage but it's actually what the deceiver wants him to think and is just waiting for the right moment to bank on it. It should be a big penalty.

Also,

if you choose to leave a free tag, what 'advantage' does the deceiver get?  It's not like the guy is down a FP.  What is the 'significant' thing you've learned from the deceiver?

I'm not 100% sure I get what you mean with the first question. Who leaves a free tag? As for what the deceived learns, "that aspect is fake and it was a trap" is pretty significant in my eyes.

[Saracen]

double post

I think I'm getting it.  When you create an aspect, you can tag it for 'free'.  You can create aspects through:
- assessments
- declarations
- maneuvers
- buying an aspect with a FP

FFF essentially theft.   It allows you to steal the tag from the aspect the person created.  The person thinks they've created an aspect, but either the aspect doesn't exist or it doesn't exist in the way they thought it did.  The deceiver uses this to his advantage by stealing the tag the other person would have gotten.

In the case of creating an aspect with a FP, you can't steal the FP AND steal the tag because you're essentially draining 4 shifts from your opponent.  Instead, you have to choose one:  Give back the FP and steal the tag OR leave the FP spent but receive no tag(essentially only stealing a 2-shifts).  The advantage for not taking the tag is the deceiver has drained a FP from the opponent.  If you choose to give back the FP, the opponent can always use that FP against you when you use your new free tag.

In the case of no FP's, you simply steal the tag.

The advantage the opponent gets when you choose to leave the FP spent is they know the aspect is false and that they're being duped because they got no tag from their Fate Point expenditure.

Does this make sense or am I way off?

I think that's a weird way to interpret it, but the math adds up with my view of it. I wouldn't put it as "the deceiver steals the tag"; more like "the deceiver reveals the aspect as false and sticks a temporary one on you. Then he gets the tag that is rightfully his, since he's the one who created the real temporary aspect". But, like I said, the math stays the same you had.

[Taran]

I said steal because you can steal a FP from someone....although, you're not stealing it because you can't keep it.  You're just tricking them into spending it on nothing.