Soulfire Question for PP

[dragoonbuster]

It sounds like it works more like

Mental   / Soul stress
0000    (00)

So it's like the extra boxes on toughness?

It's definitely a separate stress track.


This is the question that made me decide not to use Soulfire as written in the Paranet Papers. I find it to be confusing, and it complicates an issue that wasn't that big of a deal to begin with. I've never had a problem with using Sponsor Debt for Soulfire and just framing it in a different light, personally.

[Theogony_IX]

I'd say no. You can't usually split stress, and Soulfire is already plenty strong.

The only reason I'd say yes is because it fits the narration in the book better.  Harry regularly adds bits of his soul to his casting,  He doesn't usually cast with only his soul.  I realize that using the books as a guide isn't the best balancing technique for the game, but it seems more fun to me matching the books that way. *shrug  I know it's odd, but it doesn't seem very game breaking to me considering the cost and requirements of the power.

[zoellert]

I have a separate stress track on my sheet. When I fail a discipline roll I shunt it to my soul stress track if I cant afford it on my mental track.

On the flip side I can see how it would seem that you have take a soul  stress everyone time you cast. Its ambiguous and confusing.

[Theogony_IX]

I've got a player building a new character and is interested in the new soulfire mechanic.  Has anyone played with the new soulfire rules.  I want to check in with people using it on the ground.  How do you adjudicate use of the soul stress track and the bonuses that soulfire offers?  Do you let all of the character's spell satisfy the holy catch and reduce toughness powers?  Does any use get the +1 power/complexity if making things, or do you only offer than when the soul track is being used?

How is the cost?  Are the two stress boxes and consequence enough to justify the -3 cost?

[dragoonbuster]

I've got a player building a new character and is interested in the new soulfire mechanic.  Has anyone played with the new soulfire rules.  I want to check in with people using it on the ground.  How do you adjudicate use of the soul stress track and the bonuses that soulfire offers?  Do you let all of the character's spell satisfy the holy catch and reduce toughness powers?  Does any use get the +1 power/complexity if making things, or do you only offer than when the soul track is being used?

How is the cost?  Are the two stress boxes and consequence enough to justify the -3 cost?

Originally I wasn't a fan of this power, but after analyzing it some more and trying to think of a solution to the vague parts of the power, I came up with a modification of the rules that make it clearer. It's worked well on Ragnarok so far and I expect it will be fine for the upcoming Babylon, DC game. To start, you only can get the benefits listed from Soulfire when casting a Soulfire-infused spell, which means by default you get 2 spells this way, max (before taking consequences), before you are out of Soulfire and have to justify clearing your stress track. If you DO infuse a spell with Soulfire, that spell gets ALL of the listed benefits that are applicable to the spell in question. Now, here are the modifications we use to the Power:

- The maximum length your Soulfire track can be is equal to your Conviction skill
- The only thing the Soulfire track can be used for is for self-inflicted stress taken when using magic. You may take a hit to this stress track to boost the power of a spell by that many shifts (this cannot replace a mental stress hit for calling up power, but is used to "reinforce" the spell with additional power). You may also use this stress track to absorb Backlash; like standard Backlash rules you may only use one stress track at a time to absorb a spell's Backlash. You may use this track to reinforce spells via Power or Backlash or both; in any case, you receive all of the applicable benefits Soulfire might add to the spell.


Soulfire done this way is powerful but a good deal for -3 refresh.

[Theogony_IX]

- The only thing the Soulfire track can be used for is for self-inflicted stress taken when using magic. You may take a hit to this stress track to boost the power of a spell by that many shifts (this cannot replace a mental stress hit for calling up power, but is used to "reinforce" the spell with additional power). You may also use this stress track to absorb Backlash; like standard Backlash rules you may only use one stress track at a time to absorb a spell's Backlash. You may use this track to reinforce spells via Power or Backlash or both; in any case, you receive all of the applicable benefits Soulfire might add to the spell.

Clarify this for me.

Skills:
+5: Conviction, Discipline

Mental:  OOOO
Soul:  OO

I call up 6 shifts of power mark off my #2 mental box.

Mental:  OXOO
Soul:  OO

I want to infuse the spell with Soulfire because I'm fighting a Black Court.  I'll use my #2 soul box.

Mental:  OXOO
Soul:  OX

Right?  So how does it work from here?  I have 8 shifts called up.  Do I need to control all 8?  Or am I controlling the 6 shifts and the 2 soul shifts are a free addition to my weapon value?

EDIT: I'm not creating anything, so I don't get a +1 anywhere, but it does satisfy the Holy catch of the vampire, yes?  If I were creating something, it would be 9 shifts that I would have to control, right?

[dragoonbuster]

Right?  So how does it work from here?  I have 8 shifts called up.  Do I need to control all 8?  Or am I controlling the 6 shifts and the 2 soul shifts are a free addition to my weapon value?

EDIT: I'm not creating anything, so I don't get a +1 anywhere, but it does satisfy the Holy catch of the vampire, yes?  If I were creating something, it would be 9 shifts that I would have to control, right?

You've got 8 shifts of power. Control it all.

Satisfies Holy. If you'd created something, yes, you'd have 9 shifts of power, so you'd have to control all 9.

[Taran]

How does soulfire compare with the traditional way of doing it?  More or Less Powerful?  or the same?

3 refresh vs 5 refresh.  But lots of justification for evothaum and every spell can satisfy a catch....

[dragoonbuster]

How does soulfire compare with the traditional way of doing it?  More or Less Powerful?  or the same?

3 refresh vs 5 refresh.  But lots of justification for evothaum and every spell can satisfy a catch....

It sort of depends. If you already have spellcasting and pay -3 for the YS Soulfire, the PP is much better. If you have no spellcasting and pay -5 for YS Soulfire, you're getting a pretty good deal.

The way in which PP Soulfire works (at least under the clarified/modified rules) is really satisfying to see in action, though. And a powerfully good deal. It makes your spellcasting (well, a couple spells) pretty frightening, in a good way.

[Theogony_IX]

Yeah, it sounds like you're getting a good deal of utility to augment your spellcasting.  Sounds pretty close to how it works in the novel too.

How do you think 4 refresh of soulfire stacks up to 4 refresh of mental toughness (2 refinement and inhuman mental toughness)?

[dragoonbuster]

Yeah, it sounds like you're getting a good deal of utility to augment your spellcasting.  Sounds pretty close to how it works in the novel too.

How do you think 4 refresh of soulfire stacks up to 4 refresh of mental toughness (2 refinement and inhuman mental toughness)?

I dislike Mental Toughness, so my house rule is it doesn't apply to self-inflicted mental stress (so, spellcasting). By extension, the Refinement requirements are eliminated and anyone with a good reason can take it (which I call tiered "Will" rather than throwing "Mental" in front of "Toughness"). (Demonic Co-Pilot is not self-inflicted stress, technically.)

Since I haven't seen it in action vs Soulfire, I can't say for sure, but I would venture to guess that the IMT is better. Talking strictly evocation optimization, since these abilities are less useful for Thaumaturgy, assuming a Conviction and Discipline of Superb, zeroes on Control rolls, and four focus item slots spent on a +2 Offensive/Defensive Control item, the math is below.

Inhuman Mental Toughness:
+2 boxes of stress and Armor: 1 against mental stress; I believe the general consensus is that the Armor doesn't apply to spellcasting so I'll assume that. So, you get the typical complement of spell options, plus two more potential spells per scene, one at a potential +4 and one at +5 power, too.
-Your apex element can be cast @ +2 P/+1 C (assuming you have no more than the two Refinement)
- With this in mind, you can cast the following spells per turn, assuming you're using your apex element and are not worried about absorbing Backlash, tagging stuff, or spending FPs for enough Control:

(click to show/hide)

*7P/8C
*8P/8C
*9P/8C
*10P/8C
*11P/8C
*12P/8C

((105 shifts!))

Non-Apex Elements: (Note, you still have +2 more Specialization points floating around from your refinement, so I'll assume your secondary element is +1P/+1C)
*6P/6C
*7P/6C
*8P/6C
*9P/6C
*10P/6C
*11P/6C

((87 shifts))

Soulfire:
+1, +2, and +3 power on one spell (of any kind) each.
- Assume +1 to Control apex element w/ Evocation Specialization
- 3 spells that downgrade Toughness by 1 level (== free +3 Stress on successful strikes w/ attacks vs Tough opponents, effectively, given that most Attack spells strike in the upper range of an opponent's stress track)
- Possible +1 add'l point of power on each of those spells based on narration (easy to do), so now we're at +2, +3, and +4 Power
- With this in mind, you can cast the following spells per turn, assuming you're not worried about absorbing Backlash, tagging stuff, or spending FPs for enough Control:

(click to show/hide)

* 9P/8C (+3 stress on successful strike)
* 9P/8C (+3 stress on successful strike)
* 9P/8C (+3 stress on successful strike)
* 8P/8C

((67 shifts in total. There are different ways of applying these bonuses of course, but the total number of shifts remains the same. The biggest possible spell you could get off here is +12P/8C if you combined your 4th mental stress box and 3rd Soulfire stress))

Non-Apex Element:
*5P/5C
*8P/5C (+3 stress on successful strike)
*10P/5C (+3 stress on successful strike)
*12C/5C (+3 stress on successful strike)

((64 shifts inc. assuming all spells strike))

My Assessment:
With apex-element casting, you can pull out 57% more shifts with IMT vs SF. With non-apex-element casting, you're getting 36% more shifts w/ IMT vs SF. If all your Soulfire spells are not Attacks, this ratio gets worse.

I don't consider the Holy catch especially worth anything much, since Fire in particular can cover a lot of thing's Catches too. There are ways of statting these options more optimally but I wanted more of an apples to apples comparison. On top of the extra shifts, getting to cast 2 additional spells per conflict, to me, is seriously powerful and tips the scales to me (which is why I don't like using it in the first place).

EDIT: Soulfire grants additional flexibility with narrative freedom from Evothaum, in addition to the ability to lay out several aspects at a time with evothaum maneuvering, which is powerful--but you only get a few of those and it's not as useful for outright offense vs an Attack spell. The flexibility is worth something, but not a score or more shifts per conflict, I'd say. Your spells appear a little easier to balance with Soulfire in terms of power vs control, but in practice I don't think that's as important a consideration. Soulfire is a pretty solid addition to magic--the PP RAW IMT is broken powerful.

EDIT II: Fixed some math.

[Theogony_IX]

Ah yes, he extra spells you get with IH mental toughness on top of the upper limit is shifts compared to your way of running soulfire would make a big difference.  Thank you for the breakdown. That was super helpful.

[RonLugge]

I dislike Mental Toughness, so my house rule is it doesn't apply to self-inflicted mental stress (so, spellcasting). By extension, the Refinement requirements are eliminated and anyone with a good reason can take it (which I call tiered "Will" rather than throwing "Mental" in front of "Toughness"). (Demonic Co-Pilot is not self-inflicted stress, technically.)

While I don't like the renaming, I have to admit this sounds like a great way to rebuild mental toughness into something reasonable.  Mental Toughness:  just like physical toughness, but with a locked in [+0] catch of self-inflicted stress.

The spellcasting version...  any power I look at and go 'that's a must have!' I tend to eye with suspicion as being a tad bit too powerful.  And when even a crafter specialist wizard eyes an evocation-oriented power (for the extra uses/scene for his items), well, you might just be looking at something too powerful.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think you're overrating Mental Toughness a bit. It's certainly worth its cost, but the sort of shift-counting that you did there is going to give you a misleading impression.

Ignoring backlash like that isn't a good idea, and the measure of a wizard's power isn't the number of shifts they can put out in a scene. If it was, a guy who could cast power 1 control 1 spells for free would be better than the whole Senior Council.

[Theogony_IX]

What is your analysis, Sanctaphrax?  How would you compare the two?