How do you deal with players who want Scions?

[Lawgiver]

There's no real, solid Template for them, like there are for Changelings or Emissaries of Power. They're sort of between those two. But not really... *sigh*.

I'm getting ready to start a new set of scenes and my group is about to spend time in character creation... three of them have already expressed solid (read they won't be talked out of) interest in running a Scion of some sort. One wants a very Kincaid-like supernatural crossbreed with high skills in Guns, Weapons and even Fists. Another wants something vaguely like the White Court "Come Hither"... but not a WC Virgin or with any of the Feeding Dependency issues -- and doesn't want to get her "charms" from being Changeling (Fae blooded), so the 'inheritance' came from...elsewhere.

You get the idea.

Suggestions on how to go about creating some Musts or other Template/template-like requirements for Scions?

Tough, I know, but time is running out and I've been hitting a wall with this.

[dragoonbuster]

Templates are just guidelines. Take what powers make sense for the character's heritage. It shouldn't be stressful or a big deal. Don't bother writing a new Template just for them...just make the player outline their heritage, come up with what kind of creature is the parent and go from there. Your discussion with your player takes the place of a Template.

If you're trying to figure out what specific creatures those mentioned PCs' parents should be, just start trolling through different cultural mythologies on wikipedia. That's my go-to.

[PirateJack]

I've used the templates all of once in the many, many campaigns I've been in for DFRPG. The only ones that anyone really stresses about are the FP/Sorcerer/Wizard templates, because they give restrictions that otherwise would not apply, whereas the other templates are more along the lines of classes with in-built powers than anything else.

As for Scions, I just run them as Changelings-With-Another-Name.

[Taran]

I don't know what the difference between a Scion and a changeling is.  Template-wise, they're exactly the same.  In fact they are the same as an Emissary.

Once they've chosen their heritage, hammer out what kinds of powers make the most sense and let them build a character with those guide-lines in mind.

For the 'come hither' character, a Siren makes perfect sense.

-incite emotion, lust
-aquatic
-maybe swift transistion
 etc... etc...

I certainly don't see toughness or strength powers in that kind of build - maybe recovery.

There are lots of mythological creatures that lure mortals and not all of them are fairies.


Emissaries work exactly the same way, IMO.  You're the emissary of a Dragon?  O.k: toughness, strength, speed, fire immunity etc, etc, etc,  There's more justification for Items of Power for an Emissary than a Scion, I think.

[Cadd]

Keep in mind: Changelings are Scions. They're really only given a special name due to being the most common kind of scion.

I like the approach suggested for Changelings: make a list of powers possible to inherit from the parent. Be specific about what the parent is, even if it might not come up much in game. Remember to keep the available powers coherent. There's also probably a ton of baggage in the form of beings interested in the character.

There are also indications that scions face a serious pressure from the heritage itself to lose their free will unless some form of measures are taken, possibly involving a powerful being.

[LeviathanZero]

Doesn't the book explicitly state that the Changeling template is also for *any* "Half mortal half never-never critter" character?

[zakmo86]

Jim Butcher stated in an interview that was posted here on the forums somewhere that all scions will make a choice at some point, and it's not just a conscious decision. It's also about there actions. In addition to a list of powers they can take, you might come up with a scenario or situations (likely linked to their aspects) that results in a transition closer to making the Choice. Like how breaking a law of magic fundamentally changes a spellcaster. Butcher stated that Kincaid made his Choice a long time ago.

For example, a scion of a siren comes closer to becoming a monster if she drowns someone. Or closer to becoming human if she saves someone from drowning. Those are crappy examples, but I hope the point is understood. A dragon scion may deal with coveting treasures, so he embraces his draconic nature every time he puts an object's value above a life. If you link these things to aspects it creates opportunities for compels. I'd ask your player to decide if the character wants to become mortal or monster and work it into aspects.

I hope that's helpful!

[PirateJack]

Actually, that's an interesting idea.

Whenever a Scion character does something that's particularly in line with his supernatural parent, he has to roll *something* (probably Conviction) and on a failure has to change one of his aspects to be more in line with his heritage. Each aspect can only be changed once and if you replace it with something else as part of your character development, the new aspect must have a reference to the Change. Once all seven aspects have been changed, you have effectively made your Choice and become a full supernatural creature.

For example, Bill the Dropbear Scion is in the Australian Outback, waiting for a portal to open up where the oracle spirit said it would. Dropbears are nature's pinnacle ambush predators and Bill is drawing on his father's power to cloak himself in the lone tree for miles around in order to ambush whoever passes appears. Some time later the portal opens up and what Bill suspects is a Faerie steps out. Bill takes the chance and drops squarely onto the faerie's back, using his tremendous weight to crush it to the floor.

The Faerie doesn't even get a chance to retaliate before the fight is over, the dropbear proving its place as the apex predator in the Outback. Bill's player then rolls his Discipline (not very high: Bill likes beer and hookers a bit too much for that) and fails the roll, at which point he changes his Outback Tracker aspect to Outback Ambusher to reflect how his choices are moulding him into one of the most terrifying creatures in the world.

This would also be a good point for Bill to maybe take an extra power in line with dropbear heritage, perhaps taking on Claws or a stunt relating to his precious drop-tackle skills.

[Lawgiver]

All the above has been helpful, at least in some way. Maybe I didn't couch/phrase what I was needing very well.

These three players all want to play "Scions", but their concept comes from YS80, Minor Talent:

The Dresdenverse is filled with mortals who have small limited powers, whether due to long-forgotten traces of inhuman bloodlines, exposure to the supernatural, or simply the right combination of willpower and belief.

The took the underlined section to justify having their characters descended from such an old, forgotten bloodline. What I see coming is something like a mini-Camp Halfblood.

One wants to be descended from Bacchus and a mortal. Another from Tyche, Fortuna or any other Luck Goddess, the third form almost any great myth figure of great combat prowess... preferably Mars/Ares, but 'lesser' powers are acceptable.

I was hoping for some form of "fixed" formula for determining the kinds of powers they could have. I could go with the Minor Talent restrictions and allow a single 1- to 2-refresh power, but they seem to want a bit more versatility -- the Focused Practitioner level if possible. I'm just trying to avoid having them overpowered and taking control from me and ripping game balance to pieces if they get too much.

Suggestions?

[Lawgiver]

Actually, that's an interesting idea.

Whenever a Scion character does something that's particularly in line with his supernatural parent, he has to roll *something* (probably Conviction) and on a failure has to change one of his aspects to be more in line with his heritage. Each aspect can only be changed once and if you replace it with something else as part of your character development, the new aspect must have a reference to the Change. Once all seven aspects have been changed, you have effectively made your Choice and become a full supernatural creature.

For example, Bill the Dropbear Scion is in the Australian Outback, waiting for a portal to open up where the oracle spirit said it would. Dropbears are nature's pinnacle ambush predators and Bill is drawing on his father's power to cloak himself in the lone tree for miles around in order to ambush whoever passes appears. Some time later the portal opens up and what Bill suspects is a Faerie steps out. Bill takes the chance and drops squarely onto the faerie's back, using his tremendous weight to crush it to the floor.

The Faerie doesn't even get a chance to retaliate before the fight is over, the dropbear proving its place as the apex predator in the Outback. Bill's player then rolls his Discipline (not very high: Bill likes beer and hookers a bit too much for that) and fails the roll, at which point he changes his Outback Tracker aspect to Outback Ambusher to reflect how his choices are moulding him into one of the most terrifying creatures in the world.

This would also be a good point for Bill to maybe take an extra power in line with dropbear heritage, perhaps taking on Claws or a stunt relating to his precious drop-tackle skills.

Great example. I'll keep it in mind. ty

[Shaft]

One wants a very Kincaid-like supernatural crossbreed with high skills in Guns, Weapons and even Fists.

If you're looking for for a player character level demon scion/Hellhound a la Kincaid, here is a writeup that I think could work.  Feel free to adjust it to suit a tie to Mars or Ares.

Kincaid's Spartan cousin (10 Refresh, 35 skill points)

High Concept: Supernatural Soldier
Trouble: The Job Comes First
Other Aspects: The blood of Ares runs through these veins; As Human As You Are; Technology Is The Great Equalizer; Protect The Client, Tonight we dine in Hell!!!

Skills
Superb(+5): Athletics (Hide/Skulk, +6 w/ Inhuman speed, +7 to Sprint, penalties to stealth from movement reduced by 2), Guns (no range penalty when sniping)
Great(+4): Alertness (+8 Initiative w/ Inhuman Speed), Fists (+2 dmg w/ Inhuman strength)
Good(+3): Endurance, Might (+4 to Grapple, +6 to Lift)
Fair(+2): Burglary, Intimidation (The Brush Off +4), Scholarship (+3 for Military, +4 for Tactics)
Average(+1): Conviction, Driving, Lore, Presence, Survival

Powers
Inhuman Speed [–2]
Inhuman Strength [–2]

Stunts (5)
Cat-like Grace (Athletics): Swap Athletics for Stealth to Hide/Skulk

Extensive Training (Fists): Swap Fists for Weapons when using HtH Melee weapons

Sniper (Guns): With a properly equipped and adjusted rifle, and something to brace it against or a turn to take aim, he suffers no penalties to rolls due to range.

You Don't Want Any of This (Intimidation): +2 to The Brush Off

Scholar (Military +1, Tactics +2)

Stress
Physical oooo
Mental ooo
Social ooo

Total Refresh Cost: -9

[Taran]

All the above has been helpful, at least in some way. Maybe I didn't couch/phrase what I was needing very well.

These three players all want to play "Scions", but their concept comes from YS80, Minor Talent:The took the underlined section to justify having their characters descended from such an old, forgotten bloodline. What I see coming is something like a mini-Camp Halfblood.

One wants to be descended from Bacchus and a mortal. Another from Tyche, Fortuna or any other Luck Goddess, the third form almost any great myth figure of great combat prowess... preferably Mars/Ares, but 'lesser' powers are acceptable.

I was hoping for some form of "fixed" formula for determining the kinds of powers they could have. I could go with the Minor Talent restrictions and allow a single 1- to 2-refresh power, but they seem to want a bit more versatility -- the Focused Practitioner level if possible. I'm just trying to avoid having them overpowered and taking control from me and ripping game balance to pieces if they get too much.

Suggestions?

As mentioned above, it's no different than a changeling.  It won't ruin game balance because they are restricted by their refresh.

They will have a "fixed" formula because they will be limited by their bloodline and you'll have to hammer that out with them ahead of time.

Here's what I'd do:  War God-type
Sit down with the player and hammer out what kinds of Powers Mars might Have(or grant):
Strength Powers
Toughness Powers
Demesne
Sponsored magic:  War

Then let them choose anything from that list.  If  you're starting at 6 refresh, then they can't go too crazy.  I'd also limit any of the building block powers (like toughness and Strength) to Supernatural levels - no Mythics.

If you want them to start out as just discovering their powers, you could limit them to inhuman levels or only let them take 2 refresh worth of Supernatural Powers to start and let them buy more at milestones to show how they are growing into their power.

Tyche:
Incite Misfortune (ranged, weaponized etc...)
Any of the "Luck" powers from the custom list (they're a bit wonkey)
 Not sure what others.  It seems that having lots of FP's is a good idea with Tyche

Bacchus
Glamours
Incite Revelry, Lust, Joy  (maybe based on Performance)
Addictive Saliva

They will be a "half-blood" camp.  But I don't see anything wrong with it.  Ask them if they can all be part of the same pantheon.  Maybe the gods are conspiring to get power back by stirring the blood-lines up and spreading their name and renown.

[Shaft]

One wants to be descended from Bacchus and a mortal.

Child of Bacchus/Dionysius (10 Refresh, 35 skill points)

High Concept: Yet another one of Dionysius' bastards
Trouble: Eat/drink and be merry- for tomorrow we may die
Other Aspects: I'm a Lover-not a fighter!, you can have anything for a song,

Skills
Superb(+5): Presence, Rapport (Sex Appeal +7)
Great(+4): Deceit (Incite Lust +6), Empathy
Good(+3): Contacts, Lore, Performance
Fair(+2): Athletics, Resources, Scholarship
Average(+1): Alertness, Conviction, Endurance, Fists, Investigation

Powers
Inhuman Recovery [–2]
Inhuman Toughness [–2]
The Catch (Fire) [+3]
Incite Emotion, ranged, Potent (Lust) [-4]

Stunts
Tireless
Sex Appeal
Binge Drinker (+2 Mild Conditions to counter the effects of drugs and alcohol)
Lush Lifestyle

Stress
Physical ooo[oo] (+2 Mild vs drugs & alcohol)
Mental ooo
Social oooo (+1 Mild)

Total Refresh Cost: -9

[Cadd]

As Shaft and Taran has already shown, the concepts are easily workable. Being the grand- or great-grandchildren of various gods are just fine Scion material. In that case (assuming they're a couple generations removed) I'd probably not push The Choice too hard. Occasional compels to pick up more powers, pushing them toward less and less free refresh. I do however like the idea that certain acts indicate slipping further toward the choice.

I'd echo Taran's suggestion to see if they can all be descended from the same pantheon, as that makes for excelent hooks to pull them all together!

The really important things to settle beforehand is:
* What powers will be available down the line?
* Do they come with further drawbacks?
* If certain actions should push them toward the choice, what are those actions?

Basically, creating a scion is a lot about creating the parent/ancestor to figure out focus and limitations.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm just trying to avoid having them overpowered and taking control from me and ripping game balance to pieces if they get too much.

Don't worry about it. This game isn't balanced around Templates. I've never cared about Templates even a little bit and it's never had any consequences for me balance-wise.

I have had overpowered characters, but using Templates wouldn't have done anything about them.

I was hoping for some form of "fixed" formula for determining the kinds of powers they could have.

Anything that's in the book (or in your approved homebrew list) and fits the concept.

Whenever a Scion character does something that's particularly in line with his supernatural parent, he has to roll *something* (probably Conviction) and on a failure has to change one of his aspects to be more in line with his heritage. Each aspect can only be changed once and if you replace it with something else as part of your character development, the new aspect must have a reference to the Change. Once all seven aspects have been changed, you have effectively made your Choice and become a full supernatural creature.

I think this is a bad idea. The Choice should be a choice, not a punishment for rolling badly. Especially since becoming a full supernatural is actually worse than death from a continuing-to-play-your-character perspective.