The Fourth Holy Sword

[Eldest Gruff]

The swords have their own nature and their own will. Harry seemed to communicate with one in small favor.

I don't exactly recall what you might be referencing here, when was that?

[Eldest Gruff]

About the Hellsword:
Maybe it is not a sword, but the Athame. It is a equal trade to Amoracchius and Harry questions if it is in league with it. And i mean a evil dagger would be much more fitting for backstabbing evil guys And since time is not really a matter to archangels before and after humans don't matter.

Morgana's you mean?

About the wardens swords:
When Demonreach waffles about the Warden he says that at first there was only one and then there were many. So what if Merlin locked away all the big bad guys and then realized that there are still plenty of bad guys out. So he picked up the shards he still had stored away safe and does some powerful magic on them that bends their purpose because now they are able to kill innocents. He then teaches the leader to be of the wardens how to make the swords and seals himself away.
Why is it such an hidden spell?
1) Making more swords would dimish the power because they all tap into one power source.
2) Bending the purpose of something this powerful could be bad
3) Knowing how to create something probably means you can undo it to.

Problem is there is never a fixed amount of Warden's. Some years they might have 200, some years 188, some back up to 212...and so on. And it still doesn't help them if the Captain dies or becomes incapacitated, as we have seen with Luccio, because she hasn't taught anyone how to make them...there is no guarantee she will ever get her ability to do so back. So it would be prudent to teach someone new if she could, like Chandler for instance, someone with skill and a trustworthy reputation.

The fact that she hasn't speaks more to it being a personal ability of hers more so than a secret art lineage I think.

[Arjan]

I don't exactly recall what you might be referencing here, when was that?

I do not have the book with me now but when Harry was alone on the island with the swords he touched one and it seemed to explain things to Harry. You can read it differently but that is what I read in it and it fits.

[Eldest Gruff]

I do not have the book with me now but when Harry was alone on the island with the swords he touched one and it seemed to explain things to Harry. You can read it differently but that is what I read in it and it fits.

Its not about a different read, its about not having the faintest memory such a moment existed.

[Bergi]

About one of the swords "talking" to Harry i can't remember either.

About the Hellsword yes i mean Morgana's, it is one of those things still shrouded into much mystery.
And another point are the warden swords, they too are still not much explained. But i always had the impression that they were something that dates back to Merlin running around with a sword and somehow was created after his retreat. About the changing numbers of swords i don't have a problem with this, they are just something like power plugs one or two more or less are not important but too many would be bad. Maybe the knowledge about creating those swords makes you leader of the wardens, where Luccio hasn't found anyone worth it up to now.

[Eldest Gruff]

About one of the swords "talking" to Harry i can't remember either.

About the Hellsword yes i mean Morgana's, it is one of those things still shrouded into much mystery.
And another point are the warden swords, they too are still not much explained. But i always had the impression that they were something that dates back to Merlin running around with a sword and somehow was created after his retreat. About the changing numbers of swords i don't have a problem with this, they are just something like power plugs one or two more or less are not important but too many would be bad. Maybe the knowledge about creating those swords makes you leader of the wardens, where Luccio hasn't found anyone worth it up to now.

Just seems like more trouble than its worth to deny the Council a vital and valuable tool, especially when they were at war, if the knowledge was able to be passed down. Since it wasn't its more logical that it was a skill unique to Luccio.

[Arjan]

Its not about a different read, its about not having the faintest memory such a moment existed.

I seized the hilt of Fidelacchius from where the Sword had fallen. As my fingers closed around the weapon I realized several points of cold logic, as if having them explained to me by a calm, rational, wise old man who was utterly unperturbed by my rage.

It is not actually proof but I think it is pretty suggestive.

[Eldest Gruff]

It is not actually proof but I think it is pretty suggestive.

The key phrase there being 'I realized'. So while I think the Sword's presence gave him some measure of calm and steadied his nerve certainly, be that an inherent trait of the blade or Harry's own subconscious association with its power, but the blade itself didn't spell out the insight...he just got put in a better frame of mind to hash out what he already knew logically but his rage was clouding it.

[Arjan]

The key phrase there being 'I realized'. So while I think the Sword's presence gave him some measure of calm and steadied his nerve certainly, be that an inherent trait of the blade or Harry's own subconscious association with its power, but the blade itself didn't spell out the insight...he just got put in a better frame of mind to hash out what he already knew logically but his rage was clouding it.

You can read it like that.

But the "as if" was far too detailed for just a realisation and if you combine that with how magic seems to work in the dresdenverse, how balance seems to work. How everything is not spelled out and how the swords often enough seem to have a will of their own....

And angels are not known for their long chats giving valuable information. The angel in the sword is operating as expected, giving enough room to human free will.

It could have been a glympse of something more. Jim does not always spells these things out.

[Eldest Gruff]

You can read it like that.

But the "as if" was far too detailed for just a realisation and if you combine that with how magic seems to work in the dresdenverse, how balance seems to work. How everything is not spelled out and how the swords often enough seem to have a will of their own....

And angels are not known for their long chats giving valuable information. The angel in the sword is operating as expected, giving enough room to human free will.

It could have been a glympse of something more. Jim does not always spells these things out.

True enough, but 'as if' could just as easily be that calm voice in your head that always seems to get ignored...and the Sword gave him peace of mind to hear it...rather than an external voice. After all, he isn't a Knight, even if the Sword could 'communicate' in some way, or an angel uses it as a channel, there was nothing to balance out there. I don't see how they would be allowed to just up and 'give' Harry insight. Nor do I see the Blades being capable of instilling direct, personalized thought process other than perhaps to be a calming force which helps one naturally clear their mind.

[B33bl3br0x]

Morgana's you mean?

[quote[About the wardens swords:
When Demonreach waffles about the Warden he says that at first there was only one and then there were many. So what if Merlin locked away all the big bad guys and then realized that there are still plenty of bad guys out. So he picked up the shards he still had stored away safe and does some powerful magic on them that bends their purpose because now they are able to kill innocents. He then teaches the leader to be of the wardens how to make the swords and seals himself away.
Why is it such an hidden spell?
1) Making more swords would dimish the power because they all tap into one power source.
2) Bending the purpose of something this powerful could be bad
3) Knowing how to create something probably means you can undo it to.


Problem is there is never a fixed amount of Warden's. Some years they might have 200, some years 188, some back up to 212...and so on. And it still doesn't help them if the Captain dies or becomes incapacitated, as we have seen with Luccio, because she hasn't taught anyone how to make them...there is no guarantee she will ever get her ability to do so back. So it would be prudent to teach someone new if she could, like Chandler for instance, someone with skill and a trustworthy reputation.

The fact that she hasn't speaks more to it being a personal ability of hers more so than a secret art lineage I think.

About one of the swords "talking" to Harry i can't remember either.

About the Hellsword yes i mean Morgana's, it is one of those things still shrouded into much mystery.
And another point are the warden swords, they too are still not much explained. But i always had the impression that they were something that dates back to Merlin running around with a sword and somehow was created after his retreat. About the changing numbers of swords i don't have a problem with this, they are just something like power plugs one or two more or less are not important but too many would be bad. Maybe the knowledge about creating those swords makes you leader of the wardens, where Luccio hasn't found anyone worth it up to now.

In White Night Luccio tells him that the swords are her design.

She smiled briefly. The expression had entirely too much weight and subtlety for a face so young. "The fact of the matter is that the swords the Wardens have used in your lifetime must be tailored specifically to each individual Warden. They were also all articles of my creation - and I am no longer capable of creating them."

I frowned and imbibed more coffee. "Because..." I gestured at her vaguely.

She nodded. "This body did not possess the same potential, the same aptitudes for magic as my own. Returning to my former level of ability will be problematical, and will happen no time soon." She shrugged, her expression neutral, but I had a feeling she was covering a lot of frustration and bitterness. "Until someone else manages to adapt my design to their own talents, or until I have retrained myself, I'm afraid that no more such blades will be issued."

White Night Chapter 22

Doesn't that mean that there were no such swords before she created them?

[EDIT]I suppose the wording does allow for the possibility that they carried different, similar weaponry. Or even swords of a different design. Though given the history of man, before Luccio came into the picture swords were pretty much all there were.[end edit]

[Eldest Gruff]

In White Night Luccio tells him that the swords are her design.
 White Night Chapter 22

Doesn't that mean that there were no such swords before she created them?

[EDIT]I suppose the wording does allow for the possibility that they carried different, similar weaponry. Or even swords of a different design. Though given the history of man, before Luccio came into the picture swords were pretty much all there were.[end edit]

Exactly. Magical weaponry in principle has been around since magic...but the Swords are her thing. Learnable if and only if they can adapt their magic to a similar temperament as her own, but not hidden secret arts.

[kazimmoinuddin]

just because it is a weapon of the enemy, does not mean it has to be used by the enemy? harry is used to dealing with hellfire, also, denarians would be vulnerable to a hellfire blade.

[Eldest Gruff]

Hellfire is just a spell augmenter not an actual fire that can be used against its users.

[kazimmoinuddin]

i think hellfire was used to make the circle used too deal with the archive by the fallen.