The Fourth Holy Sword

[Eldest Gruff]

Where is this mentioned and if it is Raphael how does this fit with Raphael being Mac with his mantle gone walkabout?

Lash in PG with regards to the concealment wards on the Carpenter panic room:

"Aye. Raphael or one of his lieutenants, from the feel of it".

This was my original point of contention for Raphael still being active, that he would be more likely to do the work himself, (assuming availability) as we know Uriel and Michael are friends. More wiggle room to be dealt with, could go either way.

[Mith]

Raphael would do it himself if he was around.  If not, one of his lieutenants would do it in his stead, so it still works.

[kazimmoinuddin]

the angel that guarded the garden of eden, is said to have given his sword to adam and eve. so the sword might be possible/

[Griffyn612]

Where is this mentioned and if it is Raphael how does this fit with Raphael being Mac with his mantle gone walkabout?

In Proven Guilty, I believe.  When Harry sees the warded room in the Carpenter house, Lash confirms it's angelic work.  She says it's the work of "Rafael or one of his lieutenants".

As to the Raphael/Mac theory, there are several possibilities to explain it away, with varying degrees of likelihood.

1) Lash knows Raphael gave up his Grace, but doesn't know or believe that he'd truly leave himself powerless.  She thinks he still could have done the work. (She's seen Mac through Harry's eyes, so the question is does she know who he is, and does she know he's completely powerless?)
2) Lash says Rafael out of immediate recognition, but then adds "or one of his lieutenants" as she remembers that he couldn't have. (She doesn't bother explaining, because it wouldn't do her any good to let Harry know he actually knows someone he could really talk to about having the imprint in his head.)
3) Rafael and Raphael aren't the same angel. She says it's angelic work, not archangelic, so it might be a lower tier angel. (A letter makes all the difference between Uriel and Ursiel. But it seems unlikely, as the names Raphael/Rafael have no difference in meaning, and you know how angels feel about their name and it's meaning.)
4) Lasciel fell just as humanity was getting it's start.  As the theory has Raphael giving up his Grace after that, the specifics of his situation might not be known. (Same question as #1, did she recognize Mac and suspect what might have happened, and if so, did she stay silent out of self preservation?)
5) The theory is wrong, and Raphael is still active as an archangel.

[Eldest Gruff]

In Proven Guilty, I believe.  When Harry sees the warded room in the Carpenter house, Lash confirms it's angelic work.  She says it's the work of "Rafael or one of his lieutenants".

As to the Raphael/Mac theory, there are several possibilities to explain it away, with varying degrees of likelihood.

1) Lash knows Raphael gave up his Grace, but doesn't know or believe that he'd truly leave himself powerless.  She thinks he still could have done the work. (She's seen Mac through Harry's eyes, so the question is does she know who he is, and does she know he's completely powerless?)
2) Lash says Rafael out of immediate recognition, but then adds "or one of his lieutenants" as she remembers that he couldn't have. (She doesn't bother explaining, because it wouldn't do her any good to let Harry know he actually knows someone he could really talk to about having the imprint in his head.)
3) Rafael and Raphael aren't the same angel. She says it's angelic work, not archangelic, so it might be a lower tier angel. (A letter makes all the difference between Uriel and Ursiel. But it seems unlikely, as the names Raphael/Rafael have no difference in meaning, and you know how angels feel about their name and it's meaning.)
4) Lasciel fell just as humanity was getting it's start.  As the theory has Raphael giving up his Grace after that, the specifics of his situation might not be known. (Same question as #1, did she recognize Mac and suspect what might have happened, and if so, did she stay silent out of self preservation?)
5) The theory is wrong, and Raphael is still active as an archangel.

For my money its gotta be either 1/4, (which is tantamount to the same thing, she still believes him to be active. theory alive), or 5 (theory dead). Now if as presumed Mac IS Raph I would say we need to look back at how many times and when Harry/Mac interacted when she was in his head. Our choices are as follows:

Blood Rites: she's percolating in his head, I do not recall Mac's coming into play here as they were dealing with the Blacks and Whites, first Hellfire usage. So first real influence.

Dead Beat: Meeting of the Warden's at Mac's for Harry's recruitment. Lots of other problems going on, focus not likely on Mac.

Proven Guilty: Summit with the Ladies of Winter and Summer. Again, more pressing events.

White Night: Dead.

So, while Lash might have been able to take in everything at everytime, each trip resulted in more urgent matters to garner her attention...either to later tempt or help Harry with. It is simultaneously possible that AS a Graceless mortal in a human vessel that Mac doesn't raise any alarm bells to a Fallen who has, by the attesting of many, not gotten out a lot. Nic usally keeps her well under wraps. And if the angels have been battling the Outsiders in some way or another since time began, a Walker might be able to recognize Mac in any form...whereas the imprint of a Fallen at least might have a chance of not noticing...especially if attention is divided elsewhere.

[Griffyn612]

For my money its gotta be either 1/4, (which is tantamount to the same thing, she still believes him to be active. theory alive), or 5 (theory dead). Now if as presumed Mac IS Raph I would say we need to look back at how many times and when Harry/Mac interacted when she was in his head. Our choices are as follows:

Blood Rites: she's percolating in his head, I do not recall Mac's coming into play here as they were dealing with the Blacks and Whites, first Hellfire usage. So first real influence.

Dead Beat: Meeting of the Warden's at Mac's for Harry's recruitment. Lots of other problems going on, focus not likely on Mac.

Proven Guilty: Summit with the Ladies of Winter and Summer. Again, more pressing events.

White Night: Dead.

So, while Lash might have been able to take in everything at everytime, each trip resulted in more urgent matters to garner her attention...either to later tempt or help Harry with. It is simultaneously possible that AS a Graceless mortal in a human vessel that Mac doesn't raise any alarm bells to a Fallen who has, by the attesting of many, not gotten out a lot. Nic usally keeps her well under wraps. And if the angels have been battling the Outsiders in some way or another since time began, a Walker might be able to recognize Mac in any form...whereas the imprint of a Fallen at least might have a chance of not noticing...especially if attention is divided elsewhere.

I'm not sure that Lash's attention could really be 'divided'.  She's got perfect recall, and as you said, picked up on everything Harry saw and heard. 

Assuming for the moment that the theory is correct, then Mac would most likely have been without his Grace, or any other power, for millenia.  I'm not sure if the Fallen would recognize the transubstantiated form of another angel without any trace of their Grace or power.  Nico recognized Uriel, but that was when Uriel still had his Grace.  If he had transubstantiated into a form Nico had never seen, Jake perhaps, then would Nico have recognized him?  (That might be such a back door way of inquiring about the theory without being obvious that we might get an answer from JB...)

It seems possible, but if the theory is right, I doubt we'd ever get that much detail.  It'd probably just go unmentioned. 

[Eldest Gruff]

the angel that guarded the garden of eden, is said to have given his sword to adam and eve. so the sword might be possible/

The angel guarding the Garden is said to be Uriel, with a fiery sword and he's supposed to be a cherub...not an archangel. So already none of that likely applies.

[Bergi]

Maybe an idea that can be thrown in with this:
What if Merlin collected the shards and made new swords of them, swords for the wardens to come after him. And this is where the Wardenswords come from.

And something maybe against this theory:
Does Lucifer as a former Archangel have a blade too?

[Denarian-31]

Maybe an idea that can be thrown in with this:
What if Merlin collected the shards and made new swords of them, swords for the wardens to come after him. And this is where the Wardenswords come from.

And something maybe against this theory:
Does Lucifer as a former Archangel have a blade too?

Commence HellSword WAGs

Which btw I would love!

[Eldest Gruff]

Maybe an idea that can be thrown in with this:
What if Merlin collected the shards and made new swords of them, swords for the wardens to come after him. And this is where the Wardenswords come from.

And something maybe against this theory:
Does Lucifer as a former Archangel have a blade too?

Well conventional wisdom tells us that, as cool as the idea would be, that the creation of humanity was at least in part, (or wholly depending on your interpretation), the reason for Lucifer's 'rebellion'. So since he would have Fallen before the Swords would have likely been formed in any incarnations, its not likely unfortunately.

As for the first bit its not a bad idea...I would point out however that the Warden Sword thing seems to run exclusivelythru Luccio. Now while its certainly possible she learned it thru something like Merlin's journals, (assuming Eb lends them out), I would then wonder why no one else seemed capable of learning it. And Eb is a practical guy, if the answer to making the blades were in that treasure trove of info my guess is he would not leave the Council incapable of defending itself by holding onto such knowledge...especially if its one they already had access to.

So my guess is the swords are Luccio's deal, not an overall Council skill...seeing as how there are no more swords being created.

[Eldest Gruff]

Commence HellSword WAGs

Which btw I would love!

Don't be shy then, this is a thread for all things pointy 

[kazimmoinuddin]

the swords of the cross comes with restrictions correct, it was why murphy could not harm nic that time. would the hellsword have it own restrictions that can be used against it?

[Griffyn612]

the swords of the cross comes with restrictions correct, it was why murphy could not harm nic that time. would the hellsword have it own restrictions that can be used against it?

Are you asking if the bad guys play by the rules? 

[Arjan]

The swords could all be under one angel, but it doesn't really fit with what we know.
 - Michael the Archangel gave Sanya his sword, Esperacchius.  Why would he be involved if it's Uriel's show?
 - It certainly seemed like Gabriel that was trumpeting through Murphy when she wielded Fidelacchius as it filled the area with light.  It matches Mab's description of him walking "in a chorus of light".
 - Michael seemed personally familiar with Uriel, having been unsurprised by his appearance in SKIN GAME.  It seemed like they'd talked before.

On the flip side of "sponsorship"
 - Michael's house has a safe room with work by Raphael or his lieutenants.  That might imply that Michael and Amorracchius are associated with that sword.
 - Uriel's comment about being surprised that Fidelacchius took on that specific form of faith under his purview might indicate that he's associated with that sword.
 - Esperacchius seems decidedly under Michael^AA's purview, as he gave it out.

Then again, maybe the swords have no connection to the angels at all.  But it seems possible.

I think it is more likely that all three swords have a different angle associated with it similar to the coins but operating under slightly different rules. It fits ideas of balance. When the coins were made heaven reacted in balance and created the swords.

The swords have their own nature and their own will. Harry seemed to communicate with one in small favor.

[Bergi]

About the Hellsword:
Maybe it is not a sword, but the Athame. It is a equal trade to Amoracchius and Harry questions if it is in league with it. And i mean a evil dagger would be much more fitting for backstabbing evil guys And since time is not really a matter to archangels before and after humans don't matter.

About the wardens swords:
When Demonreach waffles about the Warden he says that at first there was only one and then there were many. So what if Merlin locked away all the big bad guys and then realized that there are still plenty of bad guys out. So he picked up the shards he still had stored away safe and does some powerful magic on them that bends their purpose because now they are able to kill innocents. He then teaches the leader to be of the wardens how to make the swords and seals himself away.
Why is it such an hidden spell?
1) Making more swords would dimish the power because they all tap into one power source.
2) Bending the purpose of something this powerful could be bad
3) Knowing how to create something probably means you can undo it to.