The Fourth Holy Sword

[Griffyn612]

The Spear of Longinus seems more eligible to be the "sword" of the fifth archangel.

[Eldest Gruff]

The Spear of Longinus seems more eligible to be the "sword" of the fifth archangel.

Considering what it did that's not half bad. Longinus however is a Saint. So was he using Lucifer's blade as an act of murder, perhaps in order to 'unmake' the blade? My guess is that blades associated with the angels don't turn or 'Fall' with their respective patrons since Amoracchius still worked when Uriel didn't have his Grace. But the spear still has power...did he 'unmake' it one way in order to give it new purpose and meaning?

Or if it was simply a human act of mercy (debatable but his being venerated to sainthood means many don't view his actions as 'sinister') that created the importance surrounding the blade and it has no tie to Big Lucy.

[Griffyn612]

Considering what it did that's not half bad. Longinus however is a Saint. So was he using Lucifer's blade as an act of murder, perhaps in order to 'unmake' the blade? My guess is that blades associated with the angels don't turn or 'Fall' with their respective patrons since Amoracchius still worked when Uriel didn't have his Grace. But the spear still has power...did he 'unmake' it one way in order to give it new purpose and meaning?

Or if it was simply a human act of mercy (debatable but his being venerated to sainthood means many don't view his actions as 'sinister') that created the importance surrounding the blade and it has no tie to Big Lucy.

The Longinus tale is very warped.  The earliest mention of him was that he was mauled by a lion nightly as punishment for what he did.  Later stories say he converted to Christianity, and his action was excused as a mercy. 

As for the Dresdenverse, there's clearly something planned for it.  A very long time ago (well before SKIN GAME) I proposed that Nico would eventually show up with an Unholy Sword, consisting of a blade with the Longinus spearhead worked into it, just like the nails have been worked into the Holy Swords.  I think I called it Timoracchius, with the root being "Fear".  So the sword he places it in would be the sword sponsored by Luci, if he gets to do that, and the spear would then be an enhancer like the nails were to the original Holy Swords that became the Swords of the Cross.

[Eldest Gruff]

The Longinus tale is very warped.  The earliest mention of him was that he was mauled by a lion nightly as punishment for what he did.  Later stories say he converted to Christianity, and his action was excused as a mercy. 

As for the Dresdenverse, there's clearly something planned for it.  A very long time ago (well before SKIN GAME) I proposed that Nico would eventually show up with an Unholy Sword, consisting of a blade with the Longinus spearhead worked into it, just like the nails have been worked into the Holy Swords.  I think I called it Timoracchius, with the root being "Fear".  So the sword he places it in would be the sword sponsored by Luci, if he gets to do that, and the spear would then be an enhancer like the nails were to the original Holy Swords that became the Swords of the Cross.

Interesting. But why use the spear as the enhancer rather than enhance itself? I mean it is a blade after all. A blade enhancing another blade its like piling the three Swords of the Cross together and making a 'super sword'. But since we know their power derives from the nails, and the Spear most likely like all the other artifacts doesn't have any outside 'attachment' to power it besides the faith, (and maybe the blood), I guess I could see why you would posit using it as an attachment.

But if Lucifer had a blade, then its already out there somewhere. And since we know also the power doesn't come from the archangels themselves but they might 'oversee' one apiece, it would still ultimately be taking a holy sword, adding another holy artifact to it...and then using it for evil. Which would probably just 'unmake' or otherwise cause them to become ineffective...at least it would for the sword itself. I suppose that means you would view the Spear as not altogether 'good' just, important and powerful...the Grail for example has something more clear cut when it comes to 'positive' connections.

Which means Lucifer would have to sponsor an already 'evil' blade and either funnel his own power into it, (a la the One Ring), or use the Spear to give it that extra something. Unless he can fundamentally change the aspects of his original blade somehow.

[Griffyn612]

Interesting. But why use the spear as the enhancer rather than enhance itself? I mean it is a blade after all. A blade enhancing another blade its like piling the three Swords of the Cross together and making a 'super sword'. But since we know their power derives from the nails, and the Spear most likely like all the other artifacts doesn't have any outside 'attachment' to power it besides the faith, (and maybe the blood), I guess I could see why you would posit using it as an attachment.

But if Lucifer had a blade, then its already out there somewhere. And since we know also the power doesn't come from the archangels themselves but they might 'oversee' one apiece, it would still ultimately be taking a holy sword, adding another holy artifact to it...and then using it for evil. Which would probably just 'unmake' or otherwise cause them to become ineffective...at least it would for the sword itself. I suppose that means you would view the Spear as not altogether 'good' just, important and powerful...the Grail for example has something more clear cut when it comes to 'positive' connections.

Which means Lucifer would have to sponsor an already 'evil' blade and either funnel his own power into it, (a la the One Ring), or use the Spear to give it that extra something. Unless he can fundamentally change the aspects of his original blade somehow.

Don't forget that Amoracchius, Fidelacchius, and Esperacchius all existed before the nails.  They were all Holy Swords going by different names prior to having the nails being put in to enhance their power and grant them the moniker "Sword of the Cross". 

Whether Luci has a sword or not is highly questionable.  The swords, prior to the crucifixion, seem to have been tools for good in the world.  But if Luci was locked up before the swords were originally crafted, then he might not have had one.  Or there may be a loophole that let him make one too, after seeing that the others did.  Maybe all five have the ability to empower a single weapon to embody their will, but only three have received power boosts from the crucifixion.  The other two are still floating around, one being broken with no active archangel to oversee it, and the other being used for unholy and nefarious means.

As for the spearhead being the sword itself, I think it would be hard for a pre-existing sword of Luci's to be cast as a spearhead and then used in that fashion.  Seems more likely that it was a simply spearhead, just like the nails were simple nails, until they all played their role.  The nails combined with the Holy Swords made good Swords of the Cross, emphasizing Jesus' sacrifice rather than his murder.

If the spearhead were incorporated into an Unholy Sword sponsored by Luci, then it would presumably emphasize the murder rather than the sacrifice, and become and Unholy Sword of the Crucifixion. 

A that point, Raphael would really need to get off his butt, get the broken sword, get it repaired, and incorporate the thorns from the Crown into it somehow.

[Eldest Gruff]

Don't forget that Amoracchius, Fidelacchius, and Esperacchius all existed before the nails.  They were all Holy Swords going by different names prior to having the nails being put in to enhance their power and grant them the moniker "Sword of the Cross". 

Whether Luci has a sword or not is highly questionable.  The swords, prior to the crucifixion, seem to have been tools for good in the world.  But if Luci was locked up before the swords were originally crafted, then he might not have had one.  Or there may be a loophole that let him make one too, after seeing that the others did.  Maybe all five have the ability to empower a single weapon to embody their will, but only three have received power boosts from the crucifixion.  The other two are still floating around, one being broken with no active archangel to oversee it, and the other being used for unholy and nefarious means.

As for the spearhead being the sword itself, I think it would be hard for a pre-existing sword of Luci's to be cast as a spearhead and then used in that fashion.  Seems more likely that it was a simply spearhead, just like the nails were simple nails, until they all played their role.  The nails combined with the Holy Swords made good Swords of the Cross, emphasizing Jesus' sacrifice rather than his murder.

If the spearhead were incorporated into an Unholy Sword sponsored by Luci, then it would presumably emphasize the murder rather than the sacrifice, and become and Unholy Sword of the Crucifixion. 

A that point, Raphael would really need to get off his butt, get the broken sword, get it repaired, and incorporate the thorns from the Crown into it somehow.

I don't particularly disagree with such an assessment all around...though I would of course say good is a point of view, I don't think the Saxons thought highly of Excalibur

But if we assume for a moment an idea like the bad guys getting their hands on the Spear and using it to empower an 'unholy blade' of sorts...assuming the blade itself is more or less equal to a Sword of the Cross...couldn't we content that A) the three Swords combined could still be a possible match for one somewhat MORE empowered sword or B) that if said unholy sword WERE vastly superior even to the three, that infusing any one of the others with one item from the 'horde' could then re-equalize the levels of power.

Or are we under the impression that Nic's seeking of the Spear is because it is inherently MORE powerful than any one single item...possibly all of them combined? Cuz I tend to see them more as five equal parts to a bigger 'thing', maybe a ritual or ceremony...or even an enhancement of faith magic combined.

[Griffyn612]

I don't particularly disagree with such an assessment all around...though I would of course say good is a point of view, I don't think the Saxons thought highly of Excalibur

But if we assume for a moment an idea like the bad guys getting their hands on the Spear and using it to empower an 'unholy blade' of sorts...assuming the blade itself is more or less equal to a Sword of the Cross...couldn't we content that A) the three Swords combined could still be a possible match for one somewhat MORE empowered sword or B) that if said unholy sword WERE vastly superior even to the three, that infusing any one of the others with one item from the 'horde' could then re-equalize the levels of power.

Or are we under the impression that Nic's seeking of the Spear is because it is inherently MORE powerful than any one single item...possibly all of them combined? Cuz I tend to see them more as five equal parts to a bigger 'thing', maybe a ritual or ceremony...or even an enhancement of faith magic combined.

I'm not implying that any one sword or any one artifact is more powerful than the others.  I think they would all have to be fairly equal, excepting the levels of power in which human faith might impart upon them.
 - Some believe that Lucif was the first angel, and archangel at that.  They believe that he might have been the most powerful before his fall.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level, placing it above the others.
 - Some believe that since Michael is supposed to be able to defeat Luci in the End Times, that he is more powerful.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level as well.
 - Maybe the three/four remaining Holy Swords divide a portion of faith in On High, whereas the fifth gest the sole concentration of faith  from Down Below.
 - Maybe the belief that Luci ultimately loses is enough to doom the sword to fail in a fight with one or all of the others, because deep down any faith/free will going to Luci is predicated on the idea that he will in fact lose, as their faith is truly with On High, and any power Luci gets is merely a by-product of him being the antithesis of that.

As for the artifacts...
 - Maybe the three SotC are more powerful than the other two plain Holy Swords, but if you add artifacts, then they will be equal. 
 - Maybe speahead would be more powerful because some believe it actually landed the fatal blow.
 - Maybe the nails would be more powerful because some believe he died on the cross prior to being stabbed.
 - Maybe the nails divide the faith in them evenly across the three, and one-on-one would be lesser than the faith in the spearhead.
 - Maybe the faith in the Shroud is more powerful because people associate it with the resurrection rather than just the death, and it could be more powerful than the others if used as a wrapped towel for snapping.

[Eldest Gruff]

I'm not implying that any one sword or any one artifact is more powerful than the others.  I think they would all have to be fairly equal, excepting the levels of power in which human faith might impart upon them.
 - Some believe that Lucif was the first angel, and archangel at that.  They believe that he might have been the most powerful before his fall.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level, placing it above the others.
 - Some believe that since Michael is supposed to be able to defeat Luci in the End Times, that he is more powerful.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level as well.
 - Maybe the three/four remaining Holy Swords divide a portion of faith in On High, whereas the fifth gest the sole concentration of faith  from Down Below.
 - Maybe the belief that Luci ultimately loses is enough to doom the sword to fail in a fight with one or all of the others, because deep down any faith/free will going to Luci is predicated on the idea that he will in fact lose, as their faith is truly with On High, and any power Luci gets is merely a by-product of him being the antithesis of that.

As for the artifacts...
 - Maybe the three SotC are more powerful than the other two plain Holy Swords, but if you add artifacts, then they will be equal. 
 - Maybe speahead would be more powerful because some believe it actually landed the fatal blow.
 - Maybe the nails would be more powerful because some believe he died on the cross prior to being stabbed.
 - Maybe the nails divide the faith in them evenly across the three, and one-on-one would be lesser than the faith in the spearhead.
 - Maybe the faith in the Shroud is more powerful because people associate it with the resurrection rather than just the death, and it could be more powerful than the others if used as a wrapped towel for snapping.

So ultimately what combination works best here in your view with how all this is gonna end up shaking out? As I say I think the artifacts are all pretty much equal...1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E of one another...mostly because I tend to think that while they may have properties that allow them separate purposes or 'abilities' ultimately their 'true' power is to be used in conjunction with one another.

[Griffyn612]

So ultimately what combination works best here in your view with how all this is gonna end up shaking out? As I say I think the artifacts are all pretty much equal...1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E of one another...mostly because I tend to think that while they may have properties that allow them separate purposes or 'abilities' ultimately their 'true' power is to be used in conjunction with one another.

It's hard to say.  I think they'd all be the same. 

But do the swords grow more powerful at times, if an archangel is actively sponsoring the actions rather than just passively?  For example, was Fidelacchius more powerful at Chichen Itza when (theoretical sponsor) Gabriel was speaking through Murphy?  When she pulled the sword, the area filled with white light, rather than a white light simply encompassing the sword.  A swipe of the sword cut through the combined wills of all of the LoON and the RK. 

Was that normal behavior, and could that be done against any bad guy?  Or was it more powerful than usual?  Did the sword's range and ability increase due to an extra presence, or does it simply match what is required?  I mean, in SMALL FAVOR, Michael's sword is shining super bright, but it only cuts through twenty feet or so of myrk surrounding them.  Is the myrk cast by a few dozen hobs more powerful than the combined might of the thirteen most powerful Rampires at their place of power, each of which was nearly equal to Odin's power?

It seems like there's variation in power levels as they are.  Once we add in all the other factors, I just don't know.  Could Luci even actively sponsor a sword wielded by Nico, even when he's already got another angel in his head?  And would it require another archangel to actively sponsor a sword to counter it?

I just don't know. 

[Eldest Gruff]

It's hard to say.  I think they'd all be the same. 

But do the swords grow more powerful at times, if an archangel is actively sponsoring the actions rather than just passively?  For example, was Fidelacchius more powerful at Chichen Itza when (theoretical sponsor) Gabriel was speaking through Murphy?  When she pulled the sword, the area filled with white light, rather than a white light simply encompassing the sword.  A swipe of the sword cut through the combined wills of all of the LoON and the RK. 

Was that normal behavior, and could that be done against any bad guy?  Or was it more powerful than usual?  Did the sword's range and ability increase due to an extra presence, or does it simply match what is required?  I mean, in SMALL FAVOR, Michael's sword is shining super bright, but it only cuts through twenty feet or so of myrk surrounding them.  Is the myrk cast by a few dozen hobs more powerful than the combined might of the thirteen most powerful Rampires at their place of power, each of which was nearly equal to Odin's power?

It seems like there's variation in power levels as they are.  Once we add in all the other factors, I just don't know.  Could Luci even actively sponsor a sword wielded by Nico, even when he's already got another angel in his head?  And would it require another archangel to actively sponsor a sword to counter it?

I just don't know.

That makes me wonder if the swords aren't at their least powerful in some ways when facing off against Denarians?

I say this because as you say earlier many incarnations of these blades could be viewed as 'holy swords' prior to taking on roles as Swords of the Cross, (though I wonder more if they weren't all always SoTC in the DV). But either way it shakes out, they are used over the course of time to fight and counter 'evil'. The one glaring exception is the Denarians...whom they are perfectly able to fight, injure, kill...but only if said Denarian keeps his coin and desire to remain unrepentant. Because they are still human. And the power winks outs instantly if they divest themselves of the coins...a vampire or a hob has no such protection. So it makes me wonder if the Swords don't have an auto-limiter in place when it comes to fighting the Denarians because at the end of the day as Michael has said many times...their job is to try and SAVE the Denarians from themselves and the Fallen.

So I would argue the Swords are never less powerful in some ways than when they are fighting a being who, at base level, is still human.

The Hobbs represented a supernatural threat, the Sword reacted in kind. Blindingly so. But they were still only SO much of a threat. It reacted even more at CI, proportionally to the threat represented there. So I think intrinsically tied into the swords power are these 'limiters' that can come off or be cast aside based on the evil before them. Now whether it requires angelic oversight and their 'patron' to decide, i.e. Gabriel thru Murphy...or is it an automatic process? And if so, which gives the angels more of a 'link' or avenue to act...the ability to remove such limiters, or the pathway created because more power is being drawn on, therefore the conduit has grown stronger allowing them access?

Its all rather intriguing.

[magnusth]

Well, I don't think there's a fourth sword, but if there is, I'd think i'd be Uriel's. It doesn't seem like raphael, michael or gabriel to have a hidden, secret, think; that's more uriel's style. If i had to connect him directly with any artifact, it'd be the lance, though. Why? Well, because uriel is the doer of bad but nessecary thing. He was the one who smote sodom, killed the first-born of egypt, ect. ect. He's the one who acts in secret, does things which seem bad, but for the greater good. Killing the Christ seems to fit into this mold. It's not nice, certainly, but it was merciful to end his pain and he needed to die as a sacrifice, a lamb of god. So if someone forced my hand, I'd say uriel was associated with the spear of destiny.

However, i think that's the wrong paradigm. While some arch-angels might have a greater responsibility than others, I think that all the swords are essentially under uriel's purview. Why? two reasons. First, there's the quote in ghost story where Uriel comments that when the other side circumvents free will, it is his job to step in with equal power to balance the scales.  Secondly, there's the quote from Skin Game where he talks about something being expressed under "his purview," in the context of a change to the sword. This suggests to me that the job of uriel is to protect free will and the expression thereof, which lines him up with the overarching purpose of the swords, to free people of the influence of fallen Angels. That said, other archangels may be involved during specific expression's of the swords's power and faith - Gabriel might have been the one pronouncing judgement allmighty on the LoONs, for example - but i think Uriel is the overarching custodian of the swords.

[Eldest Gruff]

Well, I don't think there's a fourth sword, but if there is, I'd think i'd be Uriel's. It doesn't seem like raphael, michael or gabriel to have a hidden, secret, think; that's more uriel's style. If i had to connect him directly with any artifact, it'd be the lance, though. Why? Well, because uriel is the doer of bad but nessecary thing. He was the one who smote sodom, killed the first-born of egypt, ect. ect. He's the one who acts in secret, does things which seem bad, but for the greater good. Killing the Christ seems to fit into this mold. It's not nice, certainly, but it was merciful to end his pain and he needed to die as a sacrifice, a lamb of god. So if someone forced my hand, I'd say uriel was associated with the spear of destiny.

However, i think that's the wrong paradigm. While some arch-angels might have a greater responsibility than others, I think that all the swords are essentially under uriel's purview. Why? two reasons. First, there's the quote in ghost story where Uriel comments that when the other side circumvents free will, it is his job to step in with equal power to balance the scales.  Secondly, there's the quote from Skin Game where he talks about something being expressed under "his purview," in the context of a change to the sword. This suggests to me that the job of uriel is to protect free will and the expression thereof, which lines him up with the overarching purpose of the swords, to free people of the influence of fallen Angels. That said, other archangels may be involved during specific expression's of the swords's power and faith - Gabriel might have been the one pronouncing judgement allmighty on the LoONs, for example - but i think Uriel is the overarching custodian of the swords.

I would have to disagree that Uriel was the one wielding the Spear to kill Christ. The whole ordeal for Jesus would have had to be free willed mortals running the show for any of it to matter or give significance to the events. An angel wouldn't have been able to step in on their own, and seeing as how the whole point was suffering and dying for our sins...I doubt an angel would have been sent to intervene in any way.

As to the swords I've made allowances that influence or sponsorship might be passed around between all the angels certainly. But in addition to the likelihood that Gabriel was the one speaking thru Murphy, Michael^AA was the one who gifted Esperacchius to Sanya, not Uriel. So my guess is they are all custodians of a sword, with room to interchange because as angels it makes sense that the swords are ALL their responsibilities on some level. But one angel being responsible for them all? Nah.

[Griffyn612]

Well, I don't think there's a fourth sword, but if there is, I'd think i'd be Uriel's. It doesn't seem like raphael, michael or gabriel to have a hidden, secret, think; that's more uriel's style. If i had to connect him directly with any artifact, it'd be the lance, though. Why? Well, because uriel is the doer of bad but nessecary thing. He was the one who smote sodom, killed the first-born of egypt, ect. ect. He's the one who acts in secret, does things which seem bad, but for the greater good. Killing the Christ seems to fit into this mold. It's not nice, certainly, but it was merciful to end his pain and he needed to die as a sacrifice, a lamb of god. So if someone forced my hand, I'd say uriel was associated with the spear of destiny.

However, i think that's the wrong paradigm. While some arch-angels might have a greater responsibility than others, I think that all the swords are essentially under uriel's purview. Why? two reasons. First, there's the quote in ghost story where Uriel comments that when the other side circumvents free will, it is his job to step in with equal power to balance the scales.  Secondly, there's the quote from Skin Game where he talks about something being expressed under "his purview," in the context of a change to the sword. This suggests to me that the job of uriel is to protect free will and the expression thereof, which lines him up with the overarching purpose of the swords, to free people of the influence of fallen Angels. That said, other archangels may be involved during specific expression's of the swords's power and faith - Gabriel might have been the one pronouncing judgement allmighty on the LoONs, for example - but i think Uriel is the overarching custodian of the swords.

The swords could all be under one angel, but it doesn't really fit with what we know.
 - Michael the Archangel gave Sanya his sword, Esperacchius.  Why would he be involved if it's Uriel's show?
 - It certainly seemed like Gabriel that was trumpeting through Murphy when she wielded Fidelacchius as it filled the area with light.  It matches Mab's description of him walking "in a chorus of light".
 - Michael seemed personally familiar with Uriel, having been unsurprised by his appearance in SKIN GAME.  It seemed like they'd talked before.

On the flip side of "sponsorship"
 - Michael's house has a safe room with work by Raphael or his lieutenants.  That might imply that Michael and Amorracchius are associated with that sword.
 - Uriel's comment about being surprised that Fidelacchius took on that specific form of faith under his purview might indicate that he's associated with that sword.
 - Esperacchius seems decidedly under Michael^AA's purview, as he gave it out.

Then again, maybe the swords have no connection to the angels at all.  But it seems possible.

[Jcarlson171]

First I really like the theory

My several cents
-lucy probably doesnt have a sword running around because Im pretty sure that would upset the balance since he got thirty coins when this was going down
-If we are assigning archangels to swords because nails then we probably need to assign one to the spear, shroud, crown, and cup because they all had Christs blood
-the Swords level the playing field between their wielder and the current threat I believe that not only Harry says this but there is a WOJ IIRC so variable power is expected since entire red court >>> lots of hobgoblins on threat meter
- Cortana could be a weapon kept in hades vault for the instances of really needing it new defender of the gate qualifies explaining why it disappears after hastings since they dont really need a sword of endurance normally (My WAG this sword might allow one person to hold the gate for a time as a new guardian ascends to power)

[Hofner1962]

On the flip side of "sponsorship"
 - Michael's house has a safe room with work by Raphael or his lieutenants.  That might imply that Michael and Amorracchius are associated with that sword.

Where is this mentioned and if it is Raphael how does this fit with Raphael being Mac with his mantle gone walkabout?