Medical Treatment

[Taran]

Assessments let you use the tag in later scenes:  investigation, burglary, scholarship, contacts. 

So it's well within the rules to have the tags last.  It also represents how a tended wound can be unravelled:  you hit a guy in the cast, he uses his free tag to pay off the compel and now the consequence is taggable like usual. 

Not married to it but I'm just sayin'....

[Sanctaphrax]

Okay, so theoretically it makes sense, but maybe it doesn't make practical sense.  How about opening up one shift of stress in a filled consequence slot?  After medical treatment, each treated consequence slot can soak up a single point of stress, but not more.  If a person fills that one shift, it's as if the consequence were brand new.  This means a free tag for whomever caused you to fill it, a new recovery process initiation, and a reset of the time needed to recover.  In other words, you popped your stitches, or misaligned your set bone . . . go back to the doctor.

Flavourful, but probably finicky to play with.

I see two ways to expand your original idea. One is to make it apply to normal invocations too, which is easy and sensible but probably not very impactful. People can just invoke other Aspects. And the other is to let consequences be tagged repeatedly, like once per fight. That'd make them a lot worse to have, but maybe that's a good thing?

Assessments let you use the tag in later scenes:  investigation, burglary, scholarship, contacts. 

So it's well within the rules to have the tags last.

True, but I don't think there's much to be gained from extending that rule to consequences. Generally, people are gonna use the tag immediately anyway.

This is about what Theogony was proposing, in case it's not clear. Obviously under your proposal the tags on the medical Aspects would have to last.

[sdfds68]

And the other is to let consequences be tagged repeatedly, like once per fight. That'd make them a lot worse to have, but maybe that's a good thing?

It could be, since they don't seem to matter as much as they should, but it would also result in a push towards always having a medical expert in the party or everybody getting relevant powers to compensate. It'd be kind of DnD-ish. "No cleric? We're doomed!"

Also, would that change be to physical consequences, or to all consequences?

[Theogony_IX]

Flavourful, but probably finicky to play with.

Can you explain what you mean a bit?

[Sanctaphrax]

Can you explain what you mean a bit?

Each 1-shift semi-consequence is another thing that the players have to keep track of. It adds another detail to the character sheet and another thing to consider when doing damage math.

It could be, since they don't seem to matter as much as they should, but it would also result in a push towards always having a medical expert in the party or everybody getting relevant powers to compensate. It'd be kind of DnD-ish. "No cleric? We're doomed!"

Also, would that change be to physical consequences, or to all consequences?

I was thinking all.

And I don't think every party would need a doctor, as long as they had access to a hospital. Having your own doctor would be helpful for avoiding awkward questions, and maybe medical bills if you play in the US, but not necessary for healing.

The downside to this, I think, is that it takes away the freedom to decide how important you want a consequence to be. The nice thing about the current system is that while you can decide to Compel that broken leg if you think it would be interesting, you can also ignore it if it would just be a distraction.

[sdfds68]

The downside to this, I think, is that it takes away the freedom to decide how important you want a consequence to be. The nice thing about the current system is that while you can decide to Compel that broken leg if you think it would be interesting, you can also ignore it if it would just be a distraction.

Then maybe the solution isn't mechanical. Maybe it's behavioral. Maybe just creating examples of consequences in play for games with different themes would be a better solution than changing the rules.

[Taran]

- I like the +1 for tagged aspects.  It's less boring than a maneuver and it still gives opponents an advantage.  Renaming the consequence keeps bookkeeping easy.

It shouldn't get too complicated.  Recovery isn't that complicated.

- I like the idea of having something done with mild consequences.  Something you can do mid-combat to alleviate a minor consequence because that's something that can be done fast.  Moderate and severe you need lots of time and quiet and a facility of some kind.

Minor consequences are the kind of thing a field medic can fix in a jiff.  An exchange or two - or maybe make it "1 minute" on the time chart.  Then extra shifts can be put towards making it quicker, so a good medic could do it in mid-combat.


****

More ideas:

- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled. 

Maybe say they only last 'x' number of scenes (maybe depending on how many shifts you get).  Or they last until they are filled or the consequence gets healed(whichever comes first).   If you did the latter, they wouldn't interfere with recovery too much.  If you have recovery, you get your consequences back quicker but lose the extra boxes sooner.

Edit:  I'd say you can only tend a wound once.  So once you use up your extra stress box, it goes away, and tending the same wound doesn't give you any other benefit.

[Taran]

Double-post:

More ideas:

- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled. 

Maybe say they only last 'x' number of scenes (maybe depending on how many shifts you get).  Or they last until they are filled or the consequence gets healed(whichever comes first).   If you did the latter, they wouldn't interfere with recovery too much.  If you have recovery, you get your consequences back quicker but lose the extra boxes sooner.

Edit:  I'd say you can only tend a wound once.  So once you use up your extra stress box, it goes away, and tending the same wound doesn't give you any other benefit.

Thinking about it, adding boxes at the end of your stress track lets you take massive hits...which doesn't make sense to me.  Instead, maybe it just soaks a point of stress.  Example:

Bob was in a fight where he took a Moderate and severe consequence.  He went to the doctor and got those injuries tended.  This gives a reason for healing.

At the end of the next scene, his moderate is going to heal because enough time has passed but, during this scene, he gets into another fight.

This is his stress track:
**[M:0] = tended monderate consequence; [S:0] = tended severe consequence

Phys:  000 [m: 0] [S:0]*

He gets hit with a 6 shift hit.

If he takes the full brunt of the attack, he has to take a mild + extreme or be taken out.

He can, instead, soak up a single point of stress with the [m:0] or the [s:0]

If he does this, he resets the healing time on the wound.  So, if he fills in the  [M:X] box, his moderate won't heal at the end of the scene - he'll have to start the healing process over again.  He can't benefit from an extra box anymore either.  IF he had taken 7 stress, he could use up both temporary boxes to soak 2 stress.

His stress track now looks like this:

00X [M:X][S:0]  mild consequence 'winded'

The [M:0] is removed from your character sheet at the end of the scene, so your stress track will look this:

Phys:  000 [S:0]

Temporary boxes go away as soon as the consequence is healed.

[Theogony_IX]

You could use the end of the stress track if you want, or you could just draw a circle to be filled next to the original consequence box.
-Both boxes open, unused consequence.
-Both boxes filled, untreated consequence.
-Main box filled only, treated consequence.

I'd let the second box be filled as many times as they want.  With only soaking up a single point of stress, and allowing a free tag for the opponent, and resetting the recovery time, I don't think it would break the game.  I think there's enough drawback there to balance the benefit.  Besides, if your players are constantly cycling through medical treatment, that gives the bad guys a pattern to follow and strike at your player's through.

[sdfds68]

Doesn't having a series of consequences that never heal defeat the purpose of consequences in the first place? You're supposed to get them, and then get rid of them, not use them as armor.

I'm really not on board with making consequences able to soak up stress. I think that instead of altering consequences themselves, it would be more effective to start treating them differently in game.

If consequences need to matter, it might be a good idea to suggest a rate of compels per session on consequences, which changes based on how serious or how over the top the game is. The rate wouldn't be a hard rule, but rather a guideline to making the game play more in tune with the damage that racks up on characters.

[Taran]

Doesn't having a series of consequences that never heal defeat the purpose of consequences in the first place? You're supposed to get them, and then get rid of them, not use them as armor.

I'm really not on board with making consequences able to soak up stress. I think that instead of altering consequences themselves, it would be more effective to start treating them differently in game.

If consequences need to matter, it might be a good idea to suggest a rate of compels per session on consequences, which changes based on how serious or how over the top the game is. The rate wouldn't be a hard rule, but rather a guideline to making the game play more in tune with the damage that racks up on characters.

It is raw that consequences soak up stress. 

Using the extra boxes from medical treatment would be optional.  If you don't want to reset the healing process, then don't use the box.  If you do that, game play is not effected at all - you just use the current rules as written. 

If you choose to use the extra stress box, you suffer the down-side.  But that down side might just save you from taking an extreme or getting taken out. 

The extra box might not help at all and it wouldn't be worth filling in.

[Haru]

Well, if you go for stress boxes, why not fractal the consequences while we're at it? It would lead to an easier way to deal with it overall.

All numbers are mostly placeholders, I'm not sure if this might be too easy or if it should be increased at some points. But here's the idea:

Each consequence has a stress track equal to its value.
mild: OO
moderate: OOOO
severe: OOOOOO

(excluding extreme, because that's special circumstances stuff)

These stress tracks don't add to your own, they are there to represent the healing state of the consequence. Every scene, you can cross off 1 box. You have to start with the lowest one on your sheet. That means if you have a mild consequence, you have to tick off a box there first, before you can cross off any on the big ones.

Healing can be done once per scene in addition to this. Roll an appropriate skill against the target number. The target is the added up values of the consequences you've got. So if you have a mild and a moderate consequence your healer would need to roll against a target number of 6. That means if someone is critically injured, you will have to take them somewhere that allows you to invoke a lot of aspects, if you want to be successful, which fits rather nicely.
Heal 1 additional box if you are successful +1 more for each 2 shifts over the target number.

Now we probably need a frequency limit on this or people will just do this end to end until the patient is clear of any consequences. I would say we can use the time increments table (YS315) for that. It would start on a different level depending on the most severe consequence:
mild: a few hour
moderate: an afternoon
severe: a day

Every subsequent attempt to heal takes one shift more on the time increment. The next attempt at healing a severe would take a few days then. Which will kind of lead us towards rehab times after a while.

The consequences would still be digital, you can either take it or not, you won't be able to take half a consequence because that's what's healed. Neither would you need less time to heal the consequence if it didn't soak its full value.

Recovery powers would simply reduce the number of stress boxes on each consequence accordingly.

[Taran]

Well, if you go for stress boxes, why not fractal the consequences while we're at it? It would lead to an easier way to deal with it overall.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding your explanation, but this seems way more complicated.  That said....

Each consequence has a stress track equal to its value.
mild: OO
moderate: OOOO
severe: OOOOOO


These stress tracks don't add to your own, they are there to represent the healing state of the consequence. Every scene, you can cross off 1 box. You have to start with the lowest one on your sheet. That means if you have a mild consequence, you have to tick off a box there first, before you can cross off any on the big ones.

It's a bit weird, since wounds heal simultaneously and a successful roll against one consequence should only affect that one.  But I guess you're doing it as an 'overall health'.

Healing can be done once per scene in addition to this. Roll an appropriate skill against the target number. The target is the added up values of the consequences you've got. So if you have a mild and a moderate consequence your healer would need to roll against a target number of 6. That means if someone is critically injured, you will have to take them somewhere that allows you to invoke a lot of aspects, if you want to be successful, which fits rather nicely.
Heal 1 additional box if you are successful +1 more for each 2 shifts over the target number.

Now we probably need a frequency limit on this or people will just do this end to end until the patient is clear of any consequences. I would say we can use the time increments table (YS315) for that. It would start on a different level depending on the most severe consequence:
mild: a few hour
moderate: an afternoon
severe: a day

Every subsequent attempt to heal takes one shift more on the time increment. The next attempt at healing a severe would take a few days then. Which will kind of lead us towards rehab times after a while.

I don't think there's a need to limit it like that.  If you can only heal 1/scene, then limit it to 1 roll/scene.  Although, I think it makes sense to limit it to 1 roll/consequence.

Edit:  I see your point...there could be many, many scenes in one day.  I still think you should only be able to tend a wound once.

Recovery powers would simply reduce the number of stress boxes on each consequence accordingly.

I guess it would be one box off each consequence/level of recovery.


It feels too involved, in my mind, having to keep track of more stress boxes between scenes.  It's way more complicated than I had in mind, personally.

[Sanctaphrax]

Then maybe the solution isn't mechanical. Maybe it's behavioral. Maybe just creating examples of consequences in play for games with different themes would be a better solution than changing the rules.

I don't think that has anything to do with medical treatment. Are you trying to solve some other issue?

For what it's worth, I think the way consequences work in play is fine. But some deeper healing rules would be nice.

- I like the idea of having something done with mild consequences.  Something you can do mid-combat to alleviate a minor consequence because that's something that can be done fast.  Moderate and severe you need lots of time and quiet and a facility of some kind.

Minor consequences are the kind of thing a field medic can fix in a jiff.  An exchange or two - or maybe make it "1 minute" on the time chart.  Then extra shifts can be put towards making it quicker, so a good medic could do it in mid-combat.

Under the current rules, a medic can do a maneuver that basically cancels out the consequence tag. I think that's enough.

Worth bearing in mind that many mild consequences aren't treatable; there's really nothing medicine can do if you get your wind knocked out. You need a few minutes, not first aid.

- If you want to do some kind of stress box recovery, you could just tag an extra 1 stress box at the end your stress track for each consequence tended.  So, yes, you have 3 extra stress boxes(which sounds powerful) - but you also have your mild, moderate and severe consequence filled.

I don't think this is a good idea. It's fiddly and it might make it optimal to inflict mild consequences on yourself in order to have them healed for extra stress boxes.

Instead, maybe it just soaks a point of stress.  Example:

...

This sounds almost exactly like what Theogony was suggesting. And my issue with it is basically the same; it's fiddly.

Also, I'm not sure I like how it works alongside Recovery.

With only soaking up a single point of stress, and allowing a free tag for the opponent, and resetting the recovery time, I don't think it would break the game.

I don't think it would either, for what it's worth. I don't really like the idea, but that doesn't mean it's unbalanced.

Well, if you go for stress boxes, why not fractal the consequences while we're at it? It would lead to an easier way to deal with it overall.

All numbers are mostly placeholders, I'm not sure if this might be too easy or if it should be increased at some points. But here's the idea:

...

This is even fiddlier, so I'm not a fan. I'd rather have something simple.

Also, if you stick with these numbers, it's likely to make consequence recovery substantially faster. And even if you change the numbers, it'll change the way in which the recovery time is determined. Which could be a problem, since I'm pretty sure this system can be gamed.

I guess it would be one box off each consequence/level of recovery.

2 boxes, if you wanted to keep Recovery working the way it does now.

[sdfds68]

I don't think that has anything to do with medical treatment. Are you trying to solve some other issue?

For what it's worth, I think the way consequences work in play is fine. But some deeper healing rules would be nice.

Changing the Consequences can result in different healing mechanics entirely. So instead of treating consequences as almost purely stress affecting things, maybe players and GMs should be treating each consequence as a sort of mini-story, starting with how they acquired and ending with how they get dropped. The best part of this is that could fit in fine with the original rules for Consequences getting healed, as the table could decide whether to actively pursue healing for a character, or to just wait it out.

So instead of PC Bob taking a mild and moderate during a chase scene and just waiting for them to go away, or even just heading to some specific location to get treatment (followed by more waiting or more stress), it could work a little more like this.

If a consequence on one particular character is a problem for the party (main combatant can't fight, main talker can't be seen in public, main caster is talking gibberish all the time instead of casting), the party can choose to single out that consequence and work it off more quickly.

So instead of waiting like normal, Bob buys some in game time to heal up with skills/tags/Party help/A fate point, and uses [whatever time period the GM declares realistic] in game to work with somebody with the Doctor stunt to try and un-mess up his arm.

While any number of mechanics could be used during that time to represent healing, what could work best here is to establish some timeframe for the number of rolls allowed and a number of shifts necessary to overcome the consequence. But some of the other suggestions made so far could also work, such as the each consequence providing a point of armor until it's really gone or providing extra boxes to take stress, as could a GM just deciding that nothing needs to be done here; it's up to the other characters to buy in game time to make up for the real life wait for a Consequence to go away.

The point isn't the specifics of how a Consequence is dealt with, it's how the idea of healing is treated as gameplay element. I think in FATE systems, dropping a Consequence requires not some special point by point 'how we get rid of this thing' treatment, but rather an acknowledgement and concerted effort by the players through established rules or possibly simple rules variations to overcome that particular part of the plot. Or, in books, movies and TV shows injuries work as the plot and themes demand, and FATE should emulate that rather than simulation of real injury.

During that time the Bad Guys are still doing things, so there's an ongoing contest (like, say the Cat and Mouse contest from YS pg 195)for the other PCs to deal with in keeping the Bad Guys resources tied up while Bob is trying to get back to functionality. That way, although Bob is gonna get back to main plot with a clear track more quickly than normal, there's a trade off for getting Bob healed as alternative to playing on with an injured Bob. Namely, the party becomes a sort of shield against further harm for Bob and the things that would compel Bob to get back out there so that Bob and his doctor can get rid of that really annoying aspect. Individual PCs could also skip out on helping out with the contest and go help Bob instead, if that's necessary.

Also, Tarans' idea for tags that could be used to pay off Consequence compels could fit in perfectly as an lower effort narrative mechanism for medical treatment. This way, should a Consequence become a problem for the players, they can slap a band aid on it, or focus on treating it like any other in game problem and just work together on fixing it.