Fighting While Hidden

[Theogony_IX]

I don't like this, personally.  It means only one person can attack and only one person can ambush.  It specifically says you can create aspects to make an ambush better and, imo, co-ordinating between characters is exactly what an ambush is.

I wasn't entirely sure about that part. That's why I separated it out and said "You might . . ."
Your point makes sense though.

So, taking this from YS.  By your reading, There can only be one victim and one ambushee.  What happens if everyone fails their alertness?  It says that they may not take a normal action and they defend at mediocre.  Does each attacker have to target a different opponent?  Or does the first shot ruin everyone else's chances?

I read it that the full first exchange is an ambush.  Everyone who fails, defends at mediocre and even the people that succeed don't get to act.  (And I didn't realize the people who succeeded weren't able to act until I re-read it just now)

Otherwise, it would only ever be the person with the highest initiative who could do any ambushing. 

I don't really interpret initiative as 'first john goes, then Judy, then Alex.'  I think combat is a bit more chaotic than that.  Lots is going on in an exchange.  So just because John shoots first in the initiative, it doesn't mean that everyone will instantly realize what's happening and ruin things for Judy and Alex.  It takes a second or two to get your bearings, and by then, half your party could be dead.

I think everyone who fails to notice the ambush will roll at mediocre for the Whole first exchange(not just the first attack).  After that, though, Ambushing is way harder.

I actually agree with you. It's just none of my examples included more than one person being ambushed. An oversight. Yes, ambushes may abound in the first exchange provided they happen simultaneously. They would then require set up and/or character aspect invocations to occur after that.

I like this.  And that's because I like guessing zones for veils.  You should add that the 'wild attack' should be enough shifts (at least 3, usually) to create a maneuver.

Thank you, and will add.

@ Theogony_IX:
- Regarding Long distance:  It sounds complicated

Yeah, it adds a different process to overcoming the block than just an attack, maneuver, or perception roll but that's because you're fighting someone a great distance away. Far enough that attacking may not be possible and hidden enough that a simple roll won't reveal them. Finding and attacking a sniper can be complicated or impossible even. That's part of what makes sniping so scary. Perhaps that can be simplified though.

- How does speed powers play a role?  or should it?  Obviously, moving zones makes it trickier for them to locate your zone.

I don't think speed powers should play much of a roll inherently. They would allow you to dance circles around a melee target trying to locate you through attacks, but otherwise, being fast doesn't hide you in plain sight anymore than it will hide you behind a veil. Only if you're far enough away that your movements wouldn't be apparent would a speed power help hide you above and beyond your block roll (see long distance mundane stealth).

If I absolutely had to include them based on the sneaking bonus in the powers, I'd probably have them be included as a factor in the difficulty set for the Investigation/Alertness checks each round. That difficulty should be based more on fun than anything else though.

[Sanctaphrax]

Taran, Theogony, thanks a lot. You've got some good stuff there.

I'm gonna let your approaches simmer in my head for a few days. Then I'll decide what I want to go with in my own games. Chances are it'll be a frankenstein-ian hybrid of both approaches and some other ideas from this thread, since I'm me.

I have another thought.  There's been lots of ideas thrown out on this thread already...I hope someone is keeping track...

I am.

Why? It seems pretty straightforward to me; it's just a maneuver and tag for effect.

Invoking for effect is freeform. It's the mechanic you use to handle weird edge cases. I guess we could make it a "standard invoke effect" like starting a grapple, but I don't find that elegant.

As far as melee attacks and stealth being impossible, I'm sure that the Skinwalker did exactly that against Harry.

It's cool that someone like the Skinwalker or the Genoskwa can do that sort of thing, but I'm not sure it should be possible for Joe Warden using an ordinary veil. So maybe it could be a custom Power. This one could be tweaked to include that, or a new one could be written.

[vultur]

As far as melee attacks and stealth being impossible, I'm sure that the Skinwalker did exactly that against Harry.

Not really. I just re-read the Skinwalker vs Alphas/Harry fight early in TC, and even though the Skinwalker was veiled, Harry can tell where it is... not its shape, but he can track its movements.,

[Quantus]

Not really. I just re-read the Skinwalker vs Alphas/Harry fight early in TC, and even though the Skinwalker was veiled, Harry can tell where it is... not its shape, but he can track its movements.,

That still isnt impossible, it's just not perfect.  Also iirc it made a lot of use of it in the attack on Chateau Wraith as well.

[Taran]

From what I did myself, and from reading people's feedback, I'd say you'd need a couple of things:

- If you're going to allow cloaking to block attacks, they should either go away as soon as  you use them to block or have them degrade, somehow.  Which is kind of how you had it in the first post.  You can get some incredibly powerful cloaks.

- I've changed my stance and believe a successful attack should bring it down - just like a regular shield block.
    It makes them slightly less powerful than a shield block because an alertness or investigate should also be able to bring them down.   That said, they're way more powerful/ flexible out of combat, so I'm o.k with that.

- The options for re-stealthing should be there.  Not sure how to go about it.  Tagging or invoking an appropriate aspect seems the best way.  Once you're re-cloaked, I'm not sure what that would mean?  Do they need a perception, or is it just a block on attacks?

- Ambushing should be limited.

[wampa]

Not really. I just re-read the Skinwalker vs Alphas/Harry fight early in TC, and even though the Skinwalker was veiled, Harry can tell where it is... not its shape, but he can track its movements.,

I'd allow Lore to complement/modify Alertness vs Supernatural forms of Stealth.

Maybe put some restrictions that force Stealth/Veils/Glamours to be used as some kind of Armor rather than a Perception-block in certain circumstances?

The idea of "veil as armor, sometimes" makes sense to me for the Skinwalker attack on Chateau Raith, at least. Kincaid's activities in the Shedd Aquarium are a bit harder for me to reconcile within the same paradigm.

[vultur]

It just doesn't seem like the veil is actually accomplishing much in that fight.

[PirateJack]

It was using the veil as part Intimidation, part Block, rather than as a veil. Skinwalkers are all about fear, after all.

[Sanctaphrax]

Remember how I said I'd think about things for a few days and then decide how I'll handle this in my own games?

Well, it turns out that a few days is more than three months. Ah well, it's not like anybody was waiting for me.

I'm about 60% satisfied with these. Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Rules For Fighting While Hidden

The are four levels of hidden-ness. The two highest represent being properly hidden, and barring Aspect stuff you can't reach them in combat. You have to start the fight hidden to be that well-concealed.

Most of the time, you only need to care about Not Hidden and Blocked, which are simple to manage. Truly Hidden comes into play when people enter the fight concealed and their opponents fail their initial Alertness rolls to find them. Hidden comes into play when someone who's Truly Hidden does something to reveal themself.

0. Not Hidden
This is what you are by default. Not much to say here.

1. Blocked
You benefit from a block which protects you from attacks and from attempts to Assess your traits. It's just a regular block.

2. Hidden
Nobody can see you, but people know you're around somewhere. They also have at least vague idea of what zone you're in. You can be targeted by actions, but people need to guess which zone to target and you can use your veil strength/hiding roll as a defence roll. Your actions are secret.

3. Truly Hidden
Nobody even knows you're present. Nobody can do anything to you. Your actions are secret. You can ambush people.

Being Found
You may roll Alertness or Investigation to find hidden characters as an action. When you do, everyone whose veil strength/hiding roll you beat is now Not Hidden.

If you're Hidden or Truly Hidden and you make a ranged attack or do anything else that affects anyone else, you become Hidden automatically. If you're within three zones of your opponents, they get to know your zone. If you're not, they know which direction you're in. In addition, everyone else gets to make an Alertness roll to discover you without taking an action.

If you're Hidden or Truly Hidden and you make a melee attack against someone in your zone, you become Not Hidden automatically unless you Take Out your target. If you Take Out your target, treat it as a ranged attack.

If you're Hidden and someone tries to hit you, and they picked the right zone, you may defend normally or use your veil/hiding roll to defend. If you defend normally, you become Not Hidden. If you use your veil/hiding roll to defend against a single-target attack and get hit, you become Not Hidden. If you use your veil/hiding roll to defend against an area attack, your defence is Mediocre (+0). But you stay Hidden, and you don't have to tell anyone they succeeded in hitting you. If they picked the wrong zone with a single-target attack, they just roll against your veil/hiding roll and if successful learn that you're not there. If they picked the wrong zone with a zone attack, they roll and nothing happens.

If you're Hidden or Truly Hidden and you move, you normally become Not Hidden. But you can roll Stealth to move 1 zone (2 or 3 with Supernatural or Mythic Speed) without being obvious. When you do, everyone else can roll Alertness to notice your movement. If you win, you stay as hidden as you are and you don't have to tell people where you moved. If they win, you become Hidden and they know which zone you moved to. If they win by 3 or more, you become Not Hidden.

At the GM's discretion, if you have a magical veil up and would become Not Hidden, you may become Blocked instead.

Hidden To Some
It's possible to be hidden in such a way that some of your enemies know where you are and others don't. But anyone who sees you can point out your position without an action, so this will very rarely happen. If you get into a three-sided fight or something and it happens, just track your hidden-ness separately for each opponent.

Perception Skills
At the GM's discretion, perception skills may modify actions taken against concealed characters.

Modifiers
At the GM's discretion, the lighting and other environmental conditions may modify people's rolls.

[Taran]

Overall I like it and it takes in to consideration many of the suggestions.

Why make a specific rule for area attacks?  Why not just say veils don't apply to area attacks.  It shouldn't matter if your hidden and saying you dodge at +0 seems like an added rule. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Glad you like it. And yeah, I wrote it after reading and re-reading this thread to absorb as much as I could. If we have another stealth fight in EtA, I'll give these a spin.

There's a specific rule for area attacks because hiding shouldn't help, and I figured having hidden people choose between getting hit hard and being revealed would make for more interesting gameplay than just having them be revealed.

An alternate solution would be to let hidden people make normal defence rolls without revealing themselves, but I'm trying to keep the power of stealth in check here. And narratively, if an attack would be capable of revealing you, I don't think you should be able to maintain your stealth by making non-stealthy dodging movements.

I'm not married to that line of thought, but it's what I had in mind.

[wyvern]

Well... it depends on how you're hiding, really.  If you're hidden by a veil and standing in the open, then sure, defense zero or reveal your location against an AoE attack.

If, by contrast, you're hiding in a foxhole or blind you built, or are otherwise physically concealed... that should help against area attacks as well.  I'd probably modify the rules for area attacks as follows:

1: You can use your hidden-ness strength to defend against area attacks if you invoke an appropriate aspect for effect - this can be by spending a fate point to make a declaration, or by using the free tag on an aspect you already established.  In this case, follow the same rules as for non-area attacks: if you get hit, you become Not Hidden; if you aren't hit, you remain at whatever level of hiding-ness you previously were.  One such invoke-for-effect will allow you to defend in this way until you become Not Hidden or the situation otherwise changes to remove the aspect you were using (i.e. if you used a free tag on a fragile aspect, this one defense is all you get out of it).

2: If you choose not to dodge (relying on veil strength, or taking the zero base defense against a ranged attack), and you spend a fate point to re-roll your defense, you may also re-choose whether or not to dodge.  (This is mostly there to allow for those dramatic dive-for-cover moments when you thought you could stand and take it and then discovered that no, actually, your opponent got a +4 on the dice and taking a mediocre defense against an area attack just won't cut it.)

3: Aside from the option in number two above, you need to choose whether or not to dodge before your opponent rolls their attack.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't want to codify anything that uses invocations. Aspects are best left freeform. But if I was GMing, I'd let someone invoke HIDDEN FOXHOLE to protect them from an area attack.

When using your veil or hidden-ness to defend you can't reroll. Because you don't roll.