Author Topic: Fighting While Hidden  (Read 14657 times)

Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2015, 03:55:21 PM »
I try to keep this as simple as possible. A veil can cover sight, smell, sound, etc--all of those are simply factored into the total strength of the veil. An Epic veil would cover those all better than a Fair veil. If you want to say "You suck at veils, and can't cover scent," and then the werewolf you're hiding from smells you? Compels. Glamours vs Magic is a narrative question of origin and mechanical difference of establishing the veil, not affecting mechanical use after the fact other than spell duration.

A "pierced" veil doesn't necessarily drop the veil, per RAW, but means someone knows something isn't right in that spot. A smudgy spot in the air, a flutter of motion, a hunt of the veiled person's shampoo. Etc. Means the veil isn't effective anymore against that person, and they could point it out to others. But means if you can get "out of sight" again, you might trick them again and force a reroll.

If out of a conflict, then it's a simple Alertness/Investigation roll vs the Veil. If that fails, the veiled person goes about their business, and it also sets the person up for a possible Stealth Ambush (they get a second chance Alertness roll beforehand).

If you attack from a veil w/o Ambush, that means they know where you are. Unless you get a chance to get out of sight and spend an action going stealthy again, then the veil is effectively gone whether you're still magically invisible or not.

If you attack from a veil w/ Ambush, that means they don't know where you are, necessarily. However, they know someone is there somewhere. Veil converts to a simple combat Block.

Veil yourself in a conflict? Everyone just saw you vanish. You can make that a Block or a Maneuver. Take an action to get hidden (maneuver and tag for effect) to go back into Stealth-mode.

How does Speed play a role? You can hit someone and zip away out of "sight" w/ free supplemental zone movements to retain the Stealth-mode.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2015, 06:50:41 PM »
Then why would that limitation be in both power descriptions? I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

The limitation isn't meaningless even if you can have multiple veils. It affects what you can do with a single action in combat, which is important.

But it's possible that Evil Hat intended something different. I guess you could ask them.

As for the original question: I don't really think you can be both hidden and actively involved in a fight. Once you attack or maneuver (well, except purely "self-targeted" maneuvers, IMO) you're revealed.

Moving is a penalty to Stealth (unless you have Speed powers). Veils are "magical Stealth rolls" so same for them, IMO.

A sniper in a good hiding spot can take quite a few shots without revealing their position. And someone with a good veil and a bunch of Speed could be very hard to track.

Veils aren't really skill replacements, but still. That idea has legs.

I kind of take this whole thing as implying that it starts out a fight.  No-one knows there are opponents yet so their guard is down.  Once you know there is someone present, you can't really ambush.

So you'd just flatly disallow in-combat ambushes, no matter how well hidden the attacker is?

I like the idea of people taking a shot in the dark and getting a lucky hit.  But, what I was trying to say before was,  if you're taking a lucky shot, it's because - for whatever reason - you know someone is hidden.  Mechanically, it's no longer a block on perception (because they're not trying to find you), it's a block on attacks (because they're trying to attack you).

If they want to FIND you, they should need to succeed on some kind of perception, I think.

Hm, okay.

Suppose you shot me, so I wanna punch you. You have a 4-shift veil and you might be in my zone, in the next zone, or two zones away. My Alertness/Investigation is 0 but my Fists is 5, so I have a good chance of hitting you but next to no chance of finding you with Alertness/Investigation.

Do I have to decide which zone I'm attacking before rolling? Do I roll Fists, and if I succeed I find you and then we see whether you're in my zone? And if you're one zone away, can I retroactively include a supplemental move? What if that takes my roll below your veil?

And how does this interact with zone attacks?

Regarding Stealth:

Any skill, if it has narrative justification can block attacks.  A weapons block could block other weapons, but probably not missile weapons since you can't normally parry missile with melee.

So you'd recommend handling it as a regular block?

I don't think that works very well with hiding, which logically shouldn't end after a turn if not maintained. Hiding and sniping is a time-honoured and effective strategy, after all.

I don't think it is weird.  It's a hell of a lot harder to maintain someone's cloak if they've given themselves away.

"Maintaining someone's cloak" isn't really a thing, though. Once you've cast your veil, the veil is there. You no longer have to do anything to maintain it, and you don't have any control over how it's used.

And it doesn't reduce the duration of a cloak - it's just changing the story of the cloak.  Out of combat, you don't keep time in exchanges - it just lasts until you run into something that has a chance to reveal your position.  It either helps you past that challenge or it doesn't.  Will it see you through the scene?  It's the same way that a social block could last 10 minutes while a combat block only lasts 6 seconds.  It's because the conflict is moving at a different speed.

Look at it this way:  If a veil lasts one scene.  In one scene, you might just be trying to get through a room.  Maybe it lasts 1 minute.  In another scene, you might be trying navigate underground tunnels - that could take you 15minutes.

Why does the veil only last 1 minute in one situation and 15 minutes in another?  It's because FATE doesn't really keep clear track of time.  It's the conflict that dictates the time.  Like the same reason why a social block might be 15 minutes while a combat block is only 6 seconds.

In combat, blocks only last one exchange, so why shouldn't a veil?

How are you getting a scene-long veil? I'm not aware of any effect that does that.

Regardless, the problem is that the veil already has a different set duration. It's okay if a social block lasts longer than a combat one, because the social block and the combat block are completely different things within the story. But the veil is the same veil regardless. And I don't see any logical reason for it to be affected by combat occurring nearby. It's not like violence emits magic-destroying radiation.

In an ideal situation - if you come up with a solid way of doing this, I'd like to see the following situation:

GM:  someone shoots at you
PLAYER:  I want to shoot back, where are they
GM:  Make an alertness
PLAYER:  I fail
GM:  you don't know where they are.
Player: (option 1) I spend the turn looking for them
           (option 2) I shoot blindly
GM: (option 2) What zone do you target?
Player: zone 3.
GM:  you miss.

- so did the player miss because the cloak was too strong or did he miss because he chose the wrong zone?  I think that this is important.  It also makes speed powers very useful.  An attacker with Mythic speed can melee, then move 3 zones for free.  The chances of knowing what zone they're in are very low.

Pretty sure this is too strong. It makes veils an insurmountable advantage over low-perception-skill people, and there are a lot of supposedly dangerous people with unimpressive perception skills.

Offline PirateJack

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2015, 07:01:39 PM »
I try to keep this as simple as possible. A veil can cover sight, smell, sound, etc--all of those are simply factored into the total strength of the veil. An Epic veil would cover those all better than a Fair veil. If you want to say "You suck at veils, and can't cover scent," and then the werewolf you're hiding from smells you? Compels. Glamours vs Magic is a narrative question of origin and mechanical difference of establishing the veil, not affecting mechanical use after the fact other than spell duration.

Makes sense to me.

Quote
A "pierced" veil doesn't necessarily drop the veil, per RAW, but means someone knows something isn't right in that spot. A smudgy spot in the air, a flutter of motion, a hunt of the veiled person's shampoo. Etc. Means the veil isn't effective anymore against that person, and they could point it out to others. But means if you can get "out of sight" again, you might trick them again and force a reroll.

If I had to adjudicate the bolded bit I'd go with something along the lines of:
  • No movement - Costs a fate point for a Declaration, which the searchers receive. Tag for effect to re-enable Veil.
  • Supplemental move to another zone - Stealth Declaration (tag for effect).
  • Skulking move to another zone - Sets a target for the searchers to find. If they don't search or fail to roll high enough, veil is back in effect.
  • Skulking move to another zone - Stealth manoeuvre with tag for effect.
  • Sprint 2+ zones away - Assuming enough narrative justification, I'd let them have this one for free, as long as no one tries to follow them.

That's the kind of guideline I'd use for this, though I suspect I'm missing a potential option here.

Speed powers would obviously make some of these options easier/better than others, which is one of the points I tried to keep in mind. Speed powers make for great hit and run attacks.

Quote
If out of a conflict, then it's a simple Alertness/Investigation roll vs the Veil. If that fails, the veiled person goes about their business, and it also sets the person up for a possible Stealth Ambush (they get a second chance Alertness roll beforehand).

If you attack from a veil w/o Ambush, that means they know where you are. Unless you get a chance to get out of sight and spend an action going stealthy again, then the veil is effectively gone whether you're still magically invisible or not.

So basically, when you first enter the zone they get an Alertness check. Fail that and you can ambush them. That's essentially how I run Stealth rolls turned ambushes.

Quote
If you attack from a veil w/ Ambush, that means they don't know where you are, necessarily. However, they know someone is there somewhere. Veil converts to a simple combat Block.

This can work, though I'd consider large zones (with aspects to match) to be narrative justification for a compel on the searchers to bring the block back to being a veil.

Quote
Veil yourself in a conflict? Everyone just saw you vanish. You can make that a Block or a Maneuver. Take an action to get hidden (maneuver and tag for effect) to go back into Stealth-mode.

So it would take two full actions to get re-veiled. Makes sense given how powerful ambushes can be; you've got to put some work into making them happen.

Quote
How does Speed play a role? You can hit someone and zip away out of "sight" w/ free supplemental zone movements to retain the Stealth-mode.

Already went over this above.
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Offline Taran

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2015, 07:10:41 PM »
So you'd just flatly disallow in-combat ambushes, no matter how well hidden the attacker is?
Once they know there's an attacker.  I'd allow a mid-combat ambush if that attacker has yet to do an action that reveals he's there.

Suppose you shot me, so I wanna punch you. You have a 4-shift veil and you might be in my zone, in the next zone, or two zones away. My Alertness/Investigation is 0 but my Fists is 5, so I have a good chance of hitting you but next to no chance of finding you with Alertness/Investigation.

Do I have to decide which zone I'm attacking before rolling? Do I roll Fists, and if I succeed I find you and then we see whether you're in my zone? And if you're one zone away, can I retroactively include a supplemental move? What if that takes my roll below your veil?
If you're using fists:
1.  pick the zone you're attacking, so you might need to move suplementally to get there.
   If you choose the wrong zone, you just miss
2. Attack.
   If they are in that zone, you have to overcome the veil.
   If they hit, they do damage and the target is revealed.



So you'd recommend handling it as a regular block?

Only if they're using stealth as a block vs attacks.  If they're trying to hide and not attack I'd just let them re-stealth...they'd have to tag an appropriate aspect (like darkness or foliage)

I don't think that works very well with hiding, which logically shouldn't end after a turn if not maintained. Hiding and sniping is a time-honoured and effective strategy, after all.
It should if you jump out of the bushes and punch someone.  Sitting under cover with a rifle is different.  I think zones should matter...and maybe ranged attacks

"Maintaining someone's cloak" isn't really a thing, though. Once you've cast your veil, the veil is there. You no longer have to do anything to maintain it, and you don't have any control over how it's used.
It is in combat.  if I cast a veil with a spell in the middle of combat, it only lasts 1 exchange.   Does it say they last a whole combat somewhere?

How are you getting a scene-long veil? I'm not aware of any effect that does that.
It's in the parenthesis on the page where it talks about veils...maybe the spirit magic section?

Regardless, the problem is that the veil already has a different set duration. It's okay if a social block lasts longer than a combat one, because the social block and the combat block are completely different things within the story. But the veil is the same veil regardless. And I don't see any logical reason for it to be affected by combat occurring nearby. It's not like violence emits magic-destroying radiation.
Well, it does if you're making yourself an obvious target....it SHOULD be hard to maintain stealth in any fashion.

Pretty sure this is too strong. It makes veils an insurmountable advantage over low-perception-skill people, and there are a lot of supposedly dangerous people with unimpressive perception skills.
Yeah...but this is exactly how snipers work and, as you say, it's a time-honoured tradition.

Quote from: taran
If we could find that, we could increase the difficulty to include attacking.  Then speed powers could alleviate this.  Example:

(these numbers are rough...you'd want to come up with something better)
Cloak of invisibility: Power 5 veil

Sprinting: - 2 to stealth
Noisy Aspect or block on Stealth: (crunchy leaves) -2
Noisy actions:  running into a flank; shouting/talking etc... -4
Attacking: -6
***EDIT:  for every zone away from victim: +1  (up to the maximum shifts of the veil)


So, if you have a power 5 veil and you attack, you automatically get spotted (unless someone rolls a terrible alertness).  If you have mythic speed, you stay hidden.

You could tag aspects to boost that.  'soft carpets' would decrease the penalty by 2, for instance.

Thinking about it, I kind of like this.  No extra rolling and incurring penalties is already a part of the game (it just doesn't often get used often)


I think this is workable.  I'm going to write up an example and post it to see what you think...

Made some edits...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 07:35:47 PM by Taran »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2015, 07:32:51 PM »
Quote
Pretty sure this is too strong. It makes veils an insurmountable advantage over low-perception-skill people, and there are a lot of supposedly dangerous people with unimpressive perception skills.
A lot of those dangerous people have access to other means of tracking than pure sight -- as Harry says, anyone with The Sight can pierce any veil, making them largely useless against wizards.

But yeah, being invisible is a huge advantage in a fight. That only makes sense.
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Offline Theogony_IX

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2015, 07:50:34 PM »
Quote
I think either could work, but I like Alertness better since it's the "combat awareness" skill. Investigation tends to be slower.

To each their own.  I hold a stricter view of actively searching vs. passively aware, and a looser view of the time constraints.  With more thought I would probably have perception skills restricting attacks against a "hidden" opponent and not modifying or complimenting them.  I agree with Taran that having a high perception skill should not make it easier to hit a hidden opponent than it is to hit someone who is clearly visible.  However, having low perception should make it harder.

So you'd just flatly disallow in-combat ambushes, no matter how well hidden the attacker is?

Yes.  I hold the belief, that you can't ambush someone if they know you're around.  Ambush implies unpreparedness and surprise.  You could try a hidden strike, but all kinds of things could reveal you before it lands if your opponent is on guard.  That would make it harder to dodge a hidden strike, but not impossible.  This could be reflected in a restriction of the dodge skill by a perception skill.

Quote
Suppose you shot me, so I wanna punch you. You have a 4-shift veil and you might be in my zone, in the next zone, or two zones away. My Alertness/Investigation is 0 but my Fists is 5, so I have a good chance of hitting you but next to no chance of finding you with Alertness/Investigation.

Do I have to decide which zone I'm attacking before rolling? Do I roll Fists, and if I succeed I find you and then we see whether you're in my zone? And if you're one zone away, can I retroactively include a supplemental move? What if that takes my roll below your veil?

And how does this interact with zone attacks?

I don't see veils or hiddenness blocking against zone attacks.  It would only make an attacker have to choose randomly which zone you're in if they fail the perception assessment.

Quote
I don't think that works very well with hiding, which logically shouldn't end after a turn if not maintained. Hiding and sniping is a time-honoured and effective strategy, after all.

Unless you're actively trying to remain hidden when someone is looking for you, it is difficult to do so especially when you're trying to do other things at the same time.  The only thing that might change this is the distance from the person attempting to find you.  The only way I would allow it to remain static, is if the person gave up their action to maintain the veil, glamour, hiding.

Quote
"Maintaining someone's cloak" isn't really a thing, though. Once you've cast your veil, the veil is there. You no longer have to do anything to maintain it, and you don't have any control over how it's used.

In the books, Molly has to work hard to maintain a veil.  It becomes even more difficult when things are moving and changing.  Many things can disrupt a veil after it's been cast.  Many things can reveal you from hiding after you've disappeared from sight by mundane means.  Having to roll to maintain your hiddenness reflects the difficulty of maintaining the effectiveness of your hiding in the environment and while moving around.


Regarding hiding and mundane skills.

Disappearing mid-combat by non-magical means is a tricky proposition and should probably require ample justification or a stunt.  The same for staying hidden after attacking someone from hiding.
-I can't stay hidden after a melee attack without some very strong justification.
-If I'm a zone or three away, I may need to take a supplemental to duck behind something, but the zone I'm in will be known.  My Stealth roll would be the defense against the attack.  Regardless of speed powers I don't think I can hide while changing zones without tagging/invoking an appropriate aspect whether I use a supplemental action to do it or not.
-If I'm sniper rifle far away, they would know which direction I attacked from, but maybe not which zone I'm in.  At this point an Investigation roll would be required to suss out my location.  Speed powers here could make finding me extremely difficult.  This difficulty might be set by my Stealth skill, plus 1 for the number of zones I could be in, and 1 for each level of speed powers I have.  Once my location is known, I would need justification to become hidden again and probably a Stealth roll.  You would roll Investigation, subtract that from the total difficulty, and then it would take teh remainder in exchanges to find my location.  For each attack I make, while you are trying to locate me, one, maybe two, exchange(s) would be removed from the remaining time to find me.

Offline Taran

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2015, 08:29:25 PM »
Before I put up my main idea, I have a question:

Should actions such as sprinting, moving, attacking etc.. create a penalty to cloaking or should it give a bonus to perception.

Hulking size gives a bonus to attack instead of a penalty to dodge.  Somewhere in the book (I can't remember - maybe in one of the stunts) implies that terrain etc..gives a bonus to alertness.

Although, It feels more intuitive to make it a penalty to cloaking rather than a bonus...

Once I do the write-up we can nitpick and discuss merits and flaws.

Offline vultur

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2015, 03:10:15 AM »
A sniper in a good hiding spot can take quite a few shots without revealing their position.

Yeah, but that's not "default", IMO. If the situation allows (you have cover and are a reasonable distance away), you could do that with an invoke for effect.

Quote
So you'd just flatly disallow in-combat ambushes, no matter how well hidden the attacker is?

"Normally", yes. Just putting up a veil doesn't mean people can't track you by where the bullets are coming from etc. (If you haven't attacked yet, that's different...)

Again, invokes for effect might allow it, but disappearing in the middle of a fight should be hard (and ambushes are powerful)...


Quote
But the veil is the same veil regardless. And I don't see any logical reason for it to be affected by combat occurring nearby. It's not like violence emits magic-destroying radiation.

Sure, but that's not necessarily FATE logic. The mechanics are modeling the narrative at least as much as the actual nuts-and-bolts of the magic.

Offline vultur

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2015, 03:15:26 AM »
I think this is workable.  I'm going to write up an example and post it to see what you think...

This is already how this works, IMO. It's not well explained in the book but the marginal notes on the Speed powers talk about it a bit. Every condition that would make it harder to be stealthy is worth -2 (the example is moving fast [-2] over noisy leaves [-2]).

EDIT:
Before I put up my main idea, I have a question:

Should actions such as sprinting, moving, attacking etc.. create a penalty to cloaking or should it give a bonus to perception.

Penalty to the Stealth roll (or veil strength), IMO. If you already have a veil up I'd say it just "counts" as 2 weaker that exchange.

I don't think any new rules are needed.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 03:17:06 AM by vultur »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2015, 03:45:00 AM »
Once they know there's an attacker.  I'd allow a mid-combat ambush if that attacker has yet to do an action that reveals he's there.
I hold the belief, that you can't ambush someone if they know you're around.  Ambush implies unpreparedness and surprise.  You could try a hidden strike, but all kinds of things could reveal you before it lands if your opponent is on guard.  That would make it harder to dodge a hidden strike, but not impossible.  This could be reflected in a restriction of the dodge skill by a perception skill.

What if they know there's an attacker, but they don't know about you specifically?

Like in the scene that started this: they knew they were in a fight, but not that the PCs were hiding invisibly and that their apparent selves were illusionary.

If you're using fists:
1.  pick the zone you're attacking, so you might need to move suplementally to get there.
   If you choose the wrong zone, you just miss
2. Attack.
   If they are in that zone, you have to overcome the veil.
   If they hit, they do damage and the target is revealed.

That sounds amazingly powerful. Especially if the GM doesn't tell you whether you missed automatically or from a low roll.

It is in combat.  if I cast a veil with a spell in the middle of combat, it only lasts 1 exchange.   Does it say they last a whole combat somewhere?

...

It's in the parenthesis on the page where it talks about veils...maybe the spirit magic section?

On page 255, it says "Duration with Evocation veils is largely a matter of GM judgement call. Personally I wouldn't go with "1 shift gets you one extra exchange" with a veil, I'd just let it hang around until something pierces it, or until the end of the scene. I see them simply as REALLY GOOD magical Stealth rolls."

It's daft, but...it's there. Fortunately it's not rules, just bad advice.

Regardless, a veil with extra shifts of duration requires no action on the creator's part to maintain it.

Well, it does if you're making yourself an obvious target....it SHOULD be hard to maintain stealth in any fashion.

Maybe the veil could remain in place, but be less/not effective during the fight as people start to figure out where you are. If you win and move on, the veil remains and behaves normally.

I think this is workable.  I'm going to write up an example and post it to see what you think...

Looking forward to it.

Should actions such as sprinting, moving, attacking etc.. create a penalty to cloaking or should it give a bonus to perception.

I don't think it matters much. Inhuman and Supernatural Speed imply that it's a penalty, Mythic Speed implies that it's a bonus. Mathematically it's the same.

With Hulking Size, it matters because you might replace your defence roll with a block. When you're hidden, you're probably not gonna be replacing your hidden-ness roll with a block.

With more thought I would probably have perception skills restricting attacks against a "hidden" opponent and not modifying or complimenting them.  I agree with Taran that having a high perception skill should not make it easier to hit a hidden opponent than it is to hit someone who is clearly visible.  However, having low perception should make it harder.

Again, under the rules I proposed it's impossible for invisible people to be easier to hit.

Regarding hiding and mundane skills.

Disappearing mid-combat by non-magical means is a tricky proposition and should probably require ample justification or a stunt.  The same for staying hidden after attacking someone from hiding.
-I can't stay hidden after a melee attack without some very strong justification.
-If I'm a zone or three away, I may need to take a supplemental to duck behind something, but the zone I'm in will be known.  My Stealth roll would be the defense against the attack.  Regardless of speed powers I don't think I can hide while changing zones without tagging/invoking an appropriate aspect whether I use a supplemental action to do it or not.
-If I'm sniper rifle far away, they would know which direction I attacked from, but maybe not which zone I'm in.  At this point an Investigation roll would be required to suss out my location.  Speed powers here could make finding me extremely difficult.  This difficulty might be set by my Stealth skill, plus 1 for the number of zones I could be in, and 1 for each level of speed powers I have.  Once my location is known, I would need justification to become hidden again and probably a Stealth roll.  You would roll Investigation, subtract that from the total difficulty, and then it would take teh remainder in exchanges to find my location.  For each attack I make, while you are trying to locate me, one, maybe two, exchange(s) would be removed from the remaining time to find me.

Could work.

A lot of those dangerous people have access to other means of tracking than pure sight -- as Harry says, anyone with The Sight can pierce any veil, making them largely useless against wizards.

I have never seen anyone open The Sight during a fight. And for good reason, it takes a full action and it's very dangerous. If your veil makes them open The Sight, it's accomplished a whole lot.

And honestly, even if veils only no-sell 20% of the opposition you face it's too much. I don't want the rules to say "if you don't have good Alertness/Investigation or a relevant sensory power, you can't hit spellcasters at all".

But yeah, being invisible is a huge advantage in a fight. That only makes sense.

For game balance reasons, it can't be significantly better than a shield spell. If it was, it would make shield spells obsolete.

And for what it's worth, I don't think it necessarily makes sense. It could be really disorienting, and I suspect you'd trip yourself up. Though I guess it depends on whether you can see yourself...

Yeah, but that's not "default", IMO. If the situation allows (you have cover and are a reasonable distance away), you could do that with an invoke for effect.

I think it's too standard a situation to leave to invokes.

Sure, but that's not necessarily FATE logic. The mechanics are modeling the narrative at least as much as the actual nuts-and-bolts of the magic.

The two should match. And making them match is usually quite manageable.

I don't think any new rules are needed.

New rules are definitely needed. I'm pretty experienced with this system, and I actually don't know what happens when someone casts a veil in a fight.

I really don't! And I'm tired of making it up as I go along.

Offline Taran

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2015, 03:51:54 AM »
This is already how this works, IMO. It's not well explained in the book but the marginal notes on the Speed powers talk about it a bit. Every condition that would make it harder to be stealthy is worth -2 (the example is moving fast [-2] over noisy leaves [-2]).

EDIT:
Penalty to the Stealth roll (or veil strength), IMO. If you already have a veil up I'd say it just "counts" as 2 weaker that exchange.

I don't think any new rules are needed.

Yeah, probably.  But I'm doing the write-up and I'm seeing some flaws.  If the veil stands, should you be able to track the enemy if they change zones, or should you guess at zones.

Maybe I'll just put up what I have:

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AMBUSH
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« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 03:04:46 PM by Taran »

Offline Theogony_IX

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2015, 08:10:07 PM »
What if they know there's an attacker, but they don't know about you specifically?

Like in the scene that started this: they knew they were in a fight, but not that the PCs were hiding invisibly and that their apparent selves were illusionary.

If they know there is an attacker, then it can't be an ambush.  Like I said, ambush implies unpreparedness and surprise.  You can't ambush someone that's ready for an attack.  Examples:

1a:  Harry is meeting with Mavra.  Mavra knows that Harry almost always brings back-up, and she expects that Karrin will be with him somewhere.  Karrin can't ambush Mavra because Mavra expects her to be there.  She can try an unnoticed attack, but not an ambush.

1b:  Mavra expects that Karrin will be with Harry somewhere.  Harry actually brought Thomas.  Thomas can't ambush Mavra either because while Thomas isn't Karrin, Mavra is still ready for an attack.


2a:  Mavra expects that her leverage to make Harry come alone is strong enough that he will comply.  She has no idea that anyone other than Harry is there.  Karrin and Thomas wait in the wings.  Thomas attempts an ambush to begin the physical conflict.  Once the conflict has begun, if Karrin hasn't revealed herself, she can't attempt her own ambush because Mavra is already prepared for attackers.

2b:  Karrin and Thomas wait in the wings.  Harry begins the physical conflict himself.  Neither Thomas nor Karrin can ambush Mavra because she's already prepared for attacks.  Whether she expects them to come only from Harry or not, she is on her toes and ready to react.  (Exception:  Mavra has an aspect that Harry, Thomas, or Karrin invokes that would allow Thomas or Karrin to ambush Mavra mid-combat.  Something like "In for the Kill."  Harry invokes "In for the Kill" spending a fate point.  He pretends to stumble on a gravestone and falls, his shield bracelet ready to go.  Mavra is upon him in a flash focused only on finishing Harry off, and Harry's shield is the only thing protecting him.  He hopes Karrin and Thomas will take their shots soon.)


You might allow a simultaneous ambush giving more than one person the ambush against a single target, but I'd consider modifying each person's Stealth roll with Presence somehow.  I'm not sure of the best way to do it, but coordinating an ambush between characters should be tricky.


I have an idea for a complete means of working with hiddenness.  I'll work out the kinks as much as I can and post later today to see what you all think.

Offline vultur

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2015, 01:18:29 AM »
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I think that's too complicated. I think the basic -2 per condition making it harder is OK (and I'd say melee attacks, and most ranged attacks, make stealth completely impossible).

I think it's too standard a situation to leave to invokes.

Why? It seems pretty straightforward to me; it's just a maneuver and tag for effect.


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New rules are definitely needed. I'm pretty experienced with this system, and I actually don't know what happens when someone casts a veil in a fight.

I think it works just like a veil any other time, everyone who might see you rolls Alertness against the veil strength.

But it's not much use unless you're setting up for an ambush (which means a second roll, and even then you're no longer hidden, IMO) or escaping.

Offline Theogony_IX

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2015, 02:17:43 AM »
Here is the idea.  Sorry in advance for the wall of text.  I'm sure there are holes, but I think it's pretty solid so far.  Thoughts?

Being Hidden in Combat

By being hidden, you are essentially preventing an opponent, or anyone else for that matter from gaining information about you.  But being hidden can also prevent particular actions, namely attacks and maneuvers against you.  Therefore, the effects of being hidden can be broken into two parts.  Information and Conflict Actions.


Information:
Being hidden prevents an opponent from gaining information about you.  Who you are, what you're doing, how you're doing it.
 In dealing with hidden information, set a difficulty based on the environment (lighting, chaos, things to hide amongst, etc.) taking into consideration how much fun things will be for the players.  To discover hidden information, roll Investigation or Alertness against the set difficulty at the beginning of your turn. Information is given based on the shifts gained from the roll each round.  Obvious information is obvious and shouldn't require a roll to be discovered.  (The bullet hole in the wall beside my head tells me I'm being shot at.)  However, for information that isn't obvious, each shift gained reveals a small amount of information about the hidden person or thing. (Zone location, weapons used, number of opponents, identity, etc.).

The reason that information is given out slowly rather than all or nothing, is that when you interact with the world around you, you leave your mark on it.  Small bits of information that reveal who you are, what you're doing, and how you're doing it.  (Cut someone with a sword, and they'll know you are using a sharp melee weapon.) Particular information can be requested by the person, but it is up to the GM whether that information is knowable from the actions the hidden person has taken.  Also, larger reveals, such as identity, should require some lead up questions/information before the big information becomes known.

As long as the effect of being hidden is not being used to block Conflict Actions, this effect will remain in place until the block strength is overcome or circumvented, it is dropped purposefully by the person who created it, or the scene ends.

The benefits of being veiled this way are largely tactical in nature.  By not knowing where your opponent is, moving around the scene of the conflict to your best advantage becomes tricky.  By not knowing what weapons or armor your opponent is using, choosing the right attack is difficult.  By not knowing who your opponent is, invoking known aspects is impossible.

What about not being able to see a strike coming from a hidden opponent?  Any dodges resulting from a hidden attack is restricted by Alertness.  This effect is removed for one round if an Investigation/Alertness check succeeds against the set difficulty.  This effect is removed entirely if the block is overcome.  This constant penalty to an opponent's defenses makes being hidden a very useful effect in a conflict.  Keep in mind that this is balanced in one of two ways.  The first is that veils, whether through magic, through glamours, or through any other means, prevent perception both ways as per YS276 (it doesn't specify means other than magic, but I will include them for balance purposes).  All actions made through a veil will suffer a penalty unless the 2 additional shifts to make the veil completely transparent are included at creation.  This often makes most other blocks more effective at preventing attacks and maneuvers (see below) at least than a veil (though the tactical benefits of hidden information is arguably worth it in some situations).  Since mundane stealth suffers no penalties to perception the way veils do, the second way the penalty from hidden attacks is balanced is through the difficulty to remain hidden by mundane means (see Mundane Stealth below).  Typically, only snipers can remain hidden and attack for longer than an exchange or two without the use of magic.



Conflict Actions:
You can also use being hidden to block all physical attacks and maneuvers against whatever or whomever is hidden.  The strength of the block is determined by the power of the veil being cast, the strength of the glamour being created, or a Stealth roll.  As with other blocks, if someone wants to land an attack or maneuver, they need to overcome the block.  If they do, then 1) the attack or maneuver lands, 2) the block is overcome and is gone, and 3) all information about the hidden becomes public given it makes sense to be public.  If they don't, then they missed, and the hidden remains hidden.  Blocks of this nature only last for one exchange unless duration is added to the effect.  Typically only wizards are able to add duration to a veil cast through evocation.  Most others will need to roll every exchange to maintain the block as per the normal blocking rules.

But what about not being able to see where a hidden target is in order to aim your attacks?  In essence, that is what the block is.  It is removing your ability to aim an attack.  If the block is overcome, then you were able to see the target enough to at least land an attack, but if the block holds then you missed, maybe even wildly.

But what if I use a melee attack on a hidden opponent who isn't in the same zone with me?  Naturally, your attack won't succeed, but not all will be lost.  First you learned that your opponent wasn't in the same zone as you.  Second, you gain the option to take that attack and turn it into a maneuver placing an aspect upon yourself related to seeking or searching for use on your next turn, but only if the total shifts of your attack is 3 or greater.


Mundane Stealth:
Disappearing mid-combat by non-magical means is a tricky proposition and should probably require ample justification or a stunt.  The same for staying hidden after attacking someone from hiding.  The further you are from a target the easier it is to remain hidden, so this will be broken up by distance.

Same Zone:
It is extremely difficult to remain hidden and do anything while in the same zone as an opponent.  You must have made a Stealth roll to remain hidden before an opponent has noticed you.  You cannot make this roll after an opponent has noticed you without a stunt or strong justification from the environment as well as an aspect being tagged/invoked.  Whether you choose to block information only or also choose to block Conflict Actions, the way being hidden is handled does not change . . . with one exception.  Once you attack or otherwise physically interact with an opponent, you are automatically revealed and your block is removed.  If there is enough justification for it, this effect may be limited only to the person you've interacted with.  After you are revealed, you will need an appropriate stunt or strong justification from the environment as well as an aspect being tagged/invoked to reestablish such a block.

Moderate Distance:
Using a ranged attack allows a bit more flexibility in remaining hidden, or disappearing again after being noticed, but not much.  As long as you are at least 1 zone away, but still within easy visibility distance, you may take a supplemental action with an attack to duck behind something in order to remain hidden, provided there is something to duck behind.  This will still reveal which zone you are in though the rest of your block will remain in place until your next exchange.  If you attempt to change zones before reestablishing the block in the next exchange, you will be revealed unless you have an appropriate stunt or an aspect to tag or invoke.  The same is true if you are trying to establish another Stealth block after being revealed with fewer justifications needed than if you were in the same zone as your opponent(s).

Long Distance:
Using a very long range weapon, such as a sniper rifle, provides the greatest flexibility in hiding and remaining hidden in conflicts without the use of magic.  After an attack is made, your opponents will know which direction the attack came from, but not your exact location.  In fact, the Investigation/Alertness checks at the beginning of each round won't start until you are located and the distance to you is reduced.  To do this, an Investigation or Alertness roll is required.  The difficulty is set by a Stealth roll, plus the number of zones you could be in, plus the 1 for each level of speed powers you possess.  Subract the Investigation/Alertness roll from the difficulty and the remainder is how many exchanges it will take to reveal you.  If there is no remainder, your location is revealed, but not the information about you.  Every attack you make after an Investigation/Alertness roll to find you is made reduces the number of exchanges it will take by 1.  Additionally, a searching opponent may move through zones you might be in to reduce the amount of time to find you by 1 exchange per zone.  The only way to stop an opponent from locating you is for a concession to be made by either party.  Once you are located, an opponent must be within reachable distance of you for the Investigation/Alertness checks to begin revealing information unless they possess some means to see at a long distance.  Changing zones will not automatically reveal you, but once your location is revealed an appropriate stunt or an aspect to tag or invoke is required to reestablish the block and begin the locating process over again, provided you are still far enough away to justify it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 10:13:51 PM by Theogony_IX »

Offline Taran

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Re: Fighting While Hidden
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2015, 02:30:48 AM »
You might allow a simultaneous ambush giving more than one person the ambush against a single target, but I'd consider modifying each person's Stealth roll with Presence somehow.  I'm not sure of the best way to do it, but coordinating an ambush between characters should be tricky.

I don't like this, personally.  It means only one person can attack and only one person can ambush.  It specifically says you can create aspects to make an ambush better and, imo, co-ordinating between characters is exactly what an ambush is.


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If
the victim succeeds(alertness), he can defend normally (but
not take a normal action in the first exchange).
If the victim’s roll fails, he can only defend at an
effective skill level of Mediocre.

So, taking this from YS.  By your reading, There can only be one victim and one ambushee.  What happens if everyone fails their alertness?  It says that they may not take a normal action and they defend at mediocre.  Does each attacker have to target a different opponent?  Or does the first shot ruin everyone else's chances?

I read it that the full first exchange is an ambush.  Everyone who fails, defends at mediocre and even the people that succeed don't get to act.  (And I didn't realize the people who succeeded weren't able to act until I re-read it just now)

Otherwise, it would only ever be the person with the highest initiative who could do any ambushing. 

I don't really interpret initiative as 'first john goes, then Judy, then Alex.'  I think combat is a bit more chaotic than that.  Lots is going on in an exchange.  So just because John shoots first in the initiative, it doesn't mean that everyone will instantly realize what's happening and ruin things for Judy and Alex.  It takes a second or two to get your bearings, and by then, half your party could be dead.

I think everyone who fails to notice the ambush will roll at mediocre for the Whole first exchange(not just the first attack).  After that, though, Ambushing is way harder.

I think that's too complicated. I think the basic -2 per condition making it harder is OK (and I'd say melee attacks, and most ranged attacks, make stealth completely impossible).
I feel it's a bit complicated too, but it's a good exercise.  As far as melee attacks and stealth being impossible, I'm sure that the Skinwalker did exactly that against Harry.

It does seem way easier to make the veil just go away if you attack.
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I have another thought.  There's been lots of ideas thrown out on this thread already...I hope someone is keeping track...

while cloaked, all your attacks and dodging is complimented by the power of your cloak.
Against a cloaked foe, all your attacks and dodges are restricted by alertness or investigation (whichever skill the GM decides).

So, at most, there's a 2 shift differential.  It lasts while the person is cloaked.  Every time they attack or do something obvious, there's an alertness roll by the opponent (you could modify this alertness by a speed power, if you want).  If they succeed, the advantage they get from the cloak is lost.

Quote from: Theogony_IX
But what if I use a melee attack on a hidden opponent who isn't in the same zone with me?  Naturally, your attack won't succeed, but not all will be lost.  First you learned that your opponent wasn't in the same zone as you.  Second, you gain the option to take that attack and turn it into a maneuver placing an aspect upon yourself related to seeking or searching for use on your next turn.
I like this.  And that's because I like guessing zones for veils.  You should add that the 'wild attack' should be enough shifts (at least 3, usually) to create a maneuver.

@ Theogony_IX:
- Regarding Long distance:  It sounds complicated
- How does speed powers play a role?  or should it?  Obviously, moving zones makes it trickier for them to locate your zone.