A note for the thread in general: this isn't just about veils. These rules should also cover normal stealth.
I'll comment on that but I think stealth is less problematic, in general. See below
EDIT: Also, I will start using the term "Cloaked" instead of Veiled. I'll edit my post to include this...but I might miss some.
Given that the book says you can break a grapple with "an attack, a spell, even a threatening look" I think the easy adjudication is the 'RAW' one.
It also says
"Additionally, if the action is something that
could reasonably break the grapple"
So we both follow RAW. I just take a stricter view as to what is "reasonable"
I do like that idea. But I don't think it solves the problem on its own. If every time you attack while veiled you get to roll Stealth for an ambush attempt, veils are the deadliest weapons around.
AMBUSH
With the Stealth skill, you can set up an ambush
by rolling to hide as per the Hiding trapping,
below. Given time to prepare, you might even
create aspects on the scene to set up the ambush.
When you decide to strike, the victim gets one
last Alertness roll to see if he notices something
at the last moment. You have the option
of keeping your hiding roll or rerolling your
Stealth in response to this last Alertness roll.
I kind of take this whole thing as implying that it starts out a fight. No-one knows there are opponents yet so their guard is down. Once you know there is someone present, you can't really ambush. Unless you allow tonnes of reactionary alertness rolls - which is what it says the victim is allowed to get. And if they overcome the cloak, you get ANOTHER reactionary stealth roll to overcome their last Alertness. It seems like a lot of rolling to do if that's going to happen every exchange when someone attacks from a veil.
Therefore, I'd leave it to the realm of starting a conflict - or leaving for someone entering an on-going conflict for the first time. Ambushes are also knowing about when and where to execute the ideal attack and, just because you're hiding or veiled, doesn't mean you're in the perfect position to ambush. Therefore, I'd have the ambusher (regardless of how they're cloaked) to roll stealth. (although, it says 'roll the hiding trapping'...so that's up to interpretation)
So do you think people should know where their hidden opponents are?
I like the idea of people taking a shot in the dark and getting a lucky hit. But, what I was trying to say before was, if you're taking a lucky shot, it's because - for whatever reason - you know someone is hidden. Mechanically, it's no longer a block on perception (because they're not trying to find you), it's a block on attacks (because they're trying to attack you).
If they want to FIND you, they should need to succeed on some kind of perception, I think.
Also, how would that work with non-veil Stealth?
Regarding Stealth:
Any skill, if it has narrative justification can block attacks. A weapons block could block other weapons, but probably not missile weapons since you can't normally parry missile with melee.
Being cloaked or hidden in combat (and staying that way) depends on the justification. In a lit, white room with no furniture, someone using stealth (even if they could hide in the first place) doesn't have the narrative justification to re-hide.
Someone with glamours can cast a glamour to disappear
Someone using a spell casts a veil.
If you're in a dark/shadowy forest, there's lots of justification for a character to use stealth as a blocking skill. He can use shadows and darkness to the best advantage, or trees/foliage etc...
That would be really weird flavourwise. You're invisible...but when violence happens, your invisibility suddenly disappears or starts fluctuating in strength wildly as the veil-er rolls high or low.
Why should people shooting near you reduce the duration of your veil?
I don't think it is weird. It's a hell of a lot harder to maintain someone's cloak if they've given themselves away. Combat is chaotic and the people you're cloaking are doing lots of random actions that are bringing attention to themselves and you have to constantly re-adjust in reaction for what they're doing. Your invisibility is going to be more tenuous. In any case, it averages out to your skill. I mean, you could argue against that...but invisibility doesn't exist, so we can't really say 'this is how it works', we can only say, 'this is how it
should work'.
And it doesn't reduce the duration of a cloak - it's just changing the story of the cloak. Out of combat, you don't keep time in exchanges - it just lasts until you run into something that has a chance to reveal your position. It either helps you past that challenge or it doesn't. Will it see you through the scene? It's the same way that a social block could last 10 minutes while a combat block only lasts 6 seconds. It's because the conflict is moving at a different speed.
Look at it this way: If a veil lasts one scene. In one scene, you might just be trying to get through a room. Maybe it lasts 1 minute. In another scene, you might be trying navigate underground tunnels - that could take you 15minutes.
Why does the veil only last 1 minute in one situation and 15 minutes in another? It's because FATE doesn't really keep clear track of time. It's the conflict that dictates the time. Like the same reason why a social block might be 15 minutes while a combat block is only 6 seconds.
In combat, blocks only last one exchange, so why shouldn't a veil?
Anyways, I'm not married to this solution. I'm just throwing out ideas
So do you tell people where their hidden opponents are?
In an ideal situation - if you come up with a solid way of doing this, I'd like to see the following situation:
GM: someone shoots at you
PLAYER: I want to shoot back, where are they
GM: Make an alertness
PLAYER: I fail
GM: you don't know where they are.
Player: (option 1) I spend the turn looking for them
(option 2) I shoot blindly
GM: (option 2) What zone do you target?
Player: zone 3.
GM: you miss.
- so did the player miss because the cloak was too strong or did he miss because he chose the wrong zone? I think that this is important. It also makes speed powers very useful. An attacker with Mythic speed can melee, then move 3 zones for free. The chances of knowing what zone they're in are very low.
So even if you go with 'the cloak becomes a block on attacks' method, I wouldn't necessarily give away an opponents position - because they're still cloaked.
Regarding Thaumaturgy: I agree with Vultur. Mobile veils are a rare exception. It even says they are 'constrained by thresholds and other barriers that scatter magical energies'
Moving is a penalty to Stealth (unless you have Speed powers). Veils are "magical Stealth rolls" so same for them, IMO.
This is a good point. Unfortunately, it doesn't ever say what kinds of penalties movement causes:
Skulking
Skulking is the art of moving while trying to
remain unnoticed. It uses many of the same
rules as Hiding, above, but it adds in difficulty
factors based on how fast you are moving and
the terrain. A slow crawl isn’t much harder, but
running is tough. Bare concrete isn’t much of an
issue, but a scattering of dried leaves and twigs
If we could find that, we could increase the difficulty to include attacking. Then speed powers could alleviate this. Example:
(these numbers are rough...you'd want to come up with something better)
Cloak of invisibility: Power 5 veil
Sprinting: - 2 to stealth
Noisy Aspect or block on Stealth: (crunchy leaves) -2
Noisy actions: running into a flank; shouting/talking etc... -4
Attacking: -6
***EDIT: for every zone away from victim: +1 (up to the maximum shifts of the veil)
So, if you have a power 5 veil and you attack, you automatically get spotted (unless someone rolls a terrible alertness). If you have mythic speed, you stay hidden.
You could tag aspects to boost that. 'soft carpets' would decrease the penalty by 2, for instance.
Thinking about it, I kind of like this. No extra rolling and incurring penalties is already a part of the game (it just doesn't often get used often)
***Edited the penalties to include zones
