Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why

[Eldest Gruff]

Remind me where in the text it says he was obliged to show up ?

I do not have SG in front of me. Harry more or less goes 'Seriously, you showed up as Kringle?' to which Vadderung replies, 'Mab has the right to call on Kringle'. Paraphrashing.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I do not have SG in front of me. Harry more or less goes 'Seriously, you showed up as Kringle?' to which Vadderung replies, 'Mab has the right to call on Kringle'. Paraphrashing.

I shall doublecheck when next I am home and remember.  Because I am not recalling anything to lock down that he absolutely has to come when she calls him, but my memory is far from perfect.

[raidem]

Kringle is a subject of hers.  She can call on him.  But not on Vadderung.
It kinda goes with the territory of holding that mantle.  He chose to use that mask instead of making a fight for territory.

But, it isn't like Mab is coercing Kringle.  It is in Kringle's interest to assist Mab.

[Arjan]

Kringle winked at me. “The Winter Knight called for me in his official capacity as an agent of the Winter Court. Mab has the right to summon Kringle. If she’d called for Vadderung, I’d have told her to get in line.”

The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.

[Eldest Gruff]

The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.

Agreed. The relationship itself is more mutual because of who Vadderung is otherwise and i'm sure she bears that in mind when deciding to summon him. But if Mab wants Kringle at the end of the day, she's gonna get Kringle.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.

OK, thank you.

Next question: Odin's decision of when to wear the Kringle mantle, is it informed by awareness of the possibility of summoning ?  I incline to think yes.

[Eldest Gruff]

OK, thank you.

Next question: Odin's decision of when to wear the Kringle mantle, is it informed by awareness of the possibility of summoning ?  I incline to think yes.

As in does he have it for that reason, wanting some sort of relationship within Winter beyond whatever form of 'alliance' he might be able to gin up as his role as Odin...or that he wears it on every other say Saturday anticipating a jingle?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

As in does he have it for that reason, wanting some sort of relationship within Winter beyond whatever form of 'alliance' he might be able to gin up as his role as Odin...or that he wears it on every other say Saturday anticipating a jingle?

I was thinking more, he puts it on when there's something big and obvious on the horizon like a trans-temporal attack which it would benefit him to be able to use Kringle's particular powerset with, and where being summoned by Mab (is that summoned in the magic-circle sense or in the sending a messenger saying "your assistance is needed" sense, I wonder?) fits with his plans to counter it.  Whereas by contrast at the end of Changes, it seems to have suited him better to show up at CI in his own guise.

[Eldest Gruff]

I was thinking more, he puts it on when there's something big and obvious on the horizon like a trans-temporal attack which it would benefit him to be able to use Kringle's particular powerset with, and where being summoned by Mab (is that summoned in the magic-circle sense or in the sending a messenger saying "your assistance is needed" sense, I wonder?) fits with his plans to counter it.  Whereas by contrast at the end of Changes, it seems to have suited him better to show up at CI in his own guise.

Hard to say because we don't yet quite know what Odin's deal with this mantle is. By which I mean does he slip it on and off at will. I'm more inclined to think he always has the mantle...for one if it were so easy to discard then it kinda defeats the definition of a mantle, two it could be made vulnerable to theft or outside influence...and that its part of his overall power.

Think of it like and first person shooter picking up different guns. You don't use them all at once, you re-quip as needed...but strictly speaking that doesn't mean you lose the other weapons either they just go in the 'magic pocket'. So I think he is always Kringle, always has Kringle and just chooses when to be 'active' as Kringle.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Think of it like and first person shooter picking up different guns. You don't use them all at once, you re-quip as needed...but strictly speaking that doesn't mean you lose the other weapons either they just go in the 'magic pocket'. So I think he is always Kringle, always has Kringle and just chooses when to be 'active' as Kringle.

So you reckon he's summonable by Mab because of having Kringle in his magic pocket even when he's not active as Kringle ?

I incline to think not, but without any solid argument.  Only thing I can think of that might be related is Harry trying to summon the Nightmare in GP without having exactly the right name but being able to get it anyway, but then at that point the Nightmare has goodly chunks of several people's souls including Harry's own, and it's ages since I've read that bit.

[Eldest Gruff]

So you reckon he's summonable by Mab because of having Kringle in his magic pocket even when he's not active as Kringle ?

I incline to think not, but without any solid argument.  Only thing I can think of that might be related is Harry trying to summon the Nightmare in GP without having exactly the right name but being able to get it anyway, but then at that point the Nightmare has goodly chunks of several people's souls including Harry's own, and it's ages since I've read that bit.

I just think it would entirely fly in the face of what we currently know mantles to be, admittedly incomplete thou it is, that he can just set it aside here and there. Now suppressing it or having another source of primary power on top of it that you can go to sure. Kinda like when Harry uses soulfire...its an alternative source of power separate and apart from his mantle or his original base of magic. Not always used, not always necessary but always THERE.

If the Kringle mantle could be 'set aside' then the same rule as Vadderung could apply, Mab summons him and he shrugs saying 'i'm not Kringle today, try again later.' and then what good does that do anyone?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I just think it would entirely fly in the face of what we currently know mantles to be, admittedly incomplete thou it is, that he can just set it aside here and there.

In a sense of power, yes.  But in a sense of identity, I think the scale of difference is not dissimilar to Harry being extended invitations as "Harry Dresden, Winter Knight" or "Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council"; it seems clearly in earlier books that him being in certain situations as Emissary of Winter has different significance to him being there when invited as a Council member though he does not stop being a Council member while he is Emissary.

If the Kringle mantle could be 'set aside' then the same rule as Vadderung could apply, Mab summons him and he shrugs saying 'i'm not Kringle today, try again later.' and then what good does that do anyone?

I'm not seeing that a way to have a smart and powerful and really dangerous player on your side when he wants to be is particularly less useful than a way of calling him to your side whether he wants to be or not, whether it antagonises him or not.

[Lawgiver]

The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.

I think compulsion more than just obligation. "Right" means a power to act without "let" or permission. None can stop you or interfere. If Mab has a "right" it cannot be gainsaid by anyone, least of all the one she is calling.

[Lawgiver]

In a sense of power, yes.  But in a sense of identity, I think the scale of difference is not dissimilar to Harry being extended invitations as "Harry Dresden, Winter Knight" or "Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council"; it seems clearly in earlier books that him being in certain situations as Emissary of Winter has different significance to him being there when invited as a Council member though he does not stop being a Council member while he is Emissary.

I'm not seeing that a way to have a smart and powerful and really dangerous player on your side when he wants to be is particularly less useful than a way of calling him to your side whether he wants to be or not, whether it antagonises him or not.

Odin's motive for attaining and maintaining the Kringle mantle is secondary, I think, to how it's used in the context of the story at that point. Mab needed Harry to have certain information and/or "connections"/"assistance". Odin/Kringle had what was needed, but the Odin portion might be disinclined to "share" without some sort of recompense/deal being struck. The Kringle portion, as Mab's subject, would have no choice but to obey his liege. Mab's selection of using Kringle instead of Odin to provide the necessary bypassed Odin's predilection for "doing business" and went straight to "obey me" and everybody's happy... Harry gets what he needs, Mab exercises her "right" without issue/resistance and Odin can both discharge his Kringle-Mantle duty to Mab and support Harry's cause to his own benefit without the works getting mucked up over "jurisdictional" issues among "Powers". Win-Win all around and tidily done.

[raidem]

Agreed. There is woj that mab is too smart to attempt to abuse the relationship.