Foxed's Crazy Theory Emporium

[Serack]

Citation, please? I'm honestly curious, because it makes more sense that Baba Yaga is a name for Mother Winter and yet I'm straining trying to peg the original beings behind the retired Mother Summer and the current Mother Summer.

I believe the WoJ says essentially,

yada yada, "Mother Winter, who is essentially this Baba Yaga figure"

I took it to mean that Baba Yaga is one of the mortal interpretations of her aspect.  Mrs. Duck did a little victory dance when she saw that though.

[Mira]

 Overlooked here in my opinion is Rashid..  It's not for nothing that his title is "Gatekeeper," yet don't you find it a bit odd that he tells Harry in Cold Days at the Gates that there is a whole lot about his job that the Senior Council doesn't know...  All though the series, Rashid has alternately tested and aided Harry apart from the Council even in spite of the Council.  Rashid has his own standard that he is measures and tests Harry by in Summer Knight, even to the point if Harry hadn't gone a step further than what the Senior Council wanted he would have killed him himself.  He aids Harry covertly as much as he can, shows up at the right moment to save his bacon in front of the Council.. Does pretty much the same thing in Proven Guilty, but this time not only saving Harry, but Molly as well.  In Turn Coat, again, thought he cannot step on the island, he meets with Harry before the Council shows up, asking pointed questions, again testing and even possibly scanning him for Nemesis.   Yes, Rashid was friends with Harry's mom and looked out for her, but I doubt that that is the only reason for his interest in Harry.  Rashid also seems to be able to see into the future..  It is strongly hinted at in Cold Days that his false eye was given to him by the Mothers.  He definitely seems to be in charge of what goes on at the Gates .  So here is a question, is there any Arab or Islamic mythology that would fit his role?

[Yuillegan]

Well, the Romans brought Olympianism to the isles, was my guess.

Serack has a wonderful grand unifying theory about mantles and power. The gist of what's relevant to this theory is that the more power one has, the more spiritual gravity one has, and the more the material world bends and breaks around you. The idea is that Hecate found herself with too much power, and spun it off into a trinity to have someone who can operate in the material world (the maiden), someone who can operate in the spiritual world (the crone), and someone who can straddle both worlds (the mother).

Citation, please? I'm honestly curious, because it makes more sense that Baba Yaga is a name for Mother Winter and yet I'm straining trying to peg the original beings behind the retired Mother Summer and the current Mother Summer.

Sounds like you're on my crazier Magna Mater theory. Which... no... could it be that Hecate is just another name, another aspect, and further down the rabbit hole lies the Mother Goddess Herself (whom Joseph Campbell cheekily calls Our Lady of Mammoths)?

Oh, no worries here. Peer review helps develop my theories into something truly crazy.

That does work, the Roman angle. Had not considered that. I feel there must have been an important reason that she went there/convinced the Romans to go there. Apart from the losing power thing. I'll have too look at the Roman conquest of Britain again and see what stands out.

Yes I just read his theory. It is quite excellent, I think he's really onto something there, especially in relation to the Amber Chronicles stuff. I don't know if I agree about Hecate spinning off her power though, even if she was clever enough to get it. While I think it fits the theory (having some with real Power, some that can do both and some that do the almost-mortal thing) I just don't get why she would spin her power away. Could you quote/explain the part of Serack's GUCMT that examines that? I couldn't really find it. Also, what Serack said about the Baba Yaga quote. I can't find the link, but it's around if you search for it.

I would rather like to read your Magna Mater theory. Could you link it? I suspect I will agree that all these names/forms lead to one big Mother Goddess type thing. Good good, we'll get some really wild theories going then!

I honestly think everyone should look at Pathfinder in terms of Baba Yaga, the Artosa, Morgannan, the Fey, and definitely a look in on the First World. I have my own theory about Jim borrowing/being influenced by his love of D&D stuff.   

[Yuillegan]

Sorry to double post. But in answer to Mira, I remember this PC game my sister used to play about faeries, and I'd have to help her past some of the levels. There was a gatekeeper in that, he guarded the cave of time or something like that. I doubt Jim has even heard of it, but still I wonder if the game had some basis in lore. As for whether he has a counterpart in Arabian Mythology I found nothing. BUT how about this!

Crone, the (Pan-Celtic) One aspect of the Triple Goddess. She represents old age or death, Winter, the end of all things, the waning moon, post-menstrual phases of women's lives, all destruction that precedes regeneration through her cauldron of rebirth. Crows and other black creatures are sacred to her. Dogs often accompanied her and guarded the gates of her after-world, helping her receive the dead. In Celtic myth, the gatekeeper-dog was named Dormarth (Death's Door). The Irish Celts maintained that true curses could be cast with the aid of a dog. Therefore, they used the word cainte (dog) for a satiric Bard with the magic power to speak curses that came true.

http://www.druidcircle.org/library/index.php?title=List_of_Celtic_Gods_%26_Goddesses

Includes some links between Mother Winter and Crone/Death and the Moon (Hecate) and even the fabled Triple Goddess (Hecate again, norns, fates, queens). But the bit about Dormarth was interesting. Cerberus guards the Greco-Roman Underworld. Hades has some link to the Queens. The Queens have a Gatekeeper. I wonder about the links there... Also in Celtic mythology, Dragons were gatekeepers to other worlds and guarded the secrets and treasures of the universe. Lots about Gatekeepers, but not much to do with Arab Mythos I am afraid.

[Serack]

Yes I just read his theory. It is quite excellent, I think he's really onto something there, especially in relation to the Amber Chronicles stuff. I don't know if I agree about Hecate spinning off her power though, even if she was clever enough to get it. While I think it fits the theory (having some with real Power, some that can do both and some that do the almost-mortal thing) I just don't get why she would spin her power away. Could you quote/explain the part of Serack's GUCMT that examines that? I couldn't really find it. Also, what Serack said about the Baba Yaga quote. I can't find the link, but it's around if you search for it.

Griff wrote some interesting thoughts on this in a reply to that topic, and then I responded...

The question, at least for me, is whether or not Hecate still exists in some form of higher awareness, or if Hecate ceased to exist in order to bring the six queens about.

My guess is that Hecate was too powerful to interact with the world.  She decided to divide herself into three aspects: one that was still to powerful to truly interact with the world, in order to retain as much power as possible; a second that was a balance between the real world and the never-world; and a third that was particularly weak, in the great scale of things, that can interact abundantly with the real world.

Traditional beliefs dictate that Hecate was One, and then she became the Triple goddess.  Perhaps she became three, and then those three further divided as she took on more Power due to her expanded roles.  She then became two of each, for a total of six.

But in my interpretation, that initial being, Hecate, is no more.  The Queens can be collectively referred to as Hecate, and they may serve the roles that she served, but I don't think she can be reconstituted.  I think that's the price she payed for more interaction with the real world.

Others, like Hades, never broke apart their power, so they cannot act upon the real world.  They are the original Aeon spawn, given shape and purpose by faith and belief.  I think the compromise is that Hades, as a shapeless and nameless Aeon, already bore characteristics and traits that he has now, but faith and belief gave him the shape and name he has.  Whether he recalls a time before he was what he is, or whether he truly existed before that, is hard to argue.

I swear, a while back, there was a WoJ that Uriel might not be an archangel that has existed from the dawn of time; instead, he might be a being that believes he is. 

That would play into the faith/belief aspect of shaping Aeons.  Uriel might be an upper-level Aeon that hasn't divided, or spawned, but he didn't have a Uriel personality or purpose until after humanity thought of him.

I understand the desire to try and keep the theory focused on the Fae, rather than other houses and pantheons, because it gets all jumbled.  How could Uriel only be 2,000 years old, and remember everything that happened before as if he were there?  It would be as if an Aeon existed that entire time, but wasn't shaped until after Christianity gave him shape.

@Griff
I really like how you discussed how Phenomenal Cosmic Powers (my term, PCP... oooh, I like that acronym) splinter their power to address mortal issues more directly in a tiered approach.  It follows closely on my own ideas on how things could be working according to this theorizing, but from a slightly different tack that works well.

Excellent points about the dilution of power.  I think part of my future comments in Reply #3 will include references to the Vadderung comments in Changes that support this.

I am dubious about the concept that the dilution is irreversible though.  It was said in CD that the beings that run around on All Hallow's Eve can snatch power from each other, which to me implies that there are mechanisms for consolidation of power after distribution.

Also, I think it is likely that the PCPs are so powerful that the "Aeons" are really only representative of a disproportionately small piece of their power, and that in a way, although the original being may be effected by having that power distributed, in another way, because that power is out there effecting things, the power itself is no less significant.  I point to the Blackstaff as a poignant example of this type of thing at work.  Some aspects of Mother Winter (Who in some ways is the same being as Mother Summer, hence my saying some aspects, also I am sure that when she is wearing different hats, she gets to follow different rules much like Vadderung) are more restricted by the lack of her "walking stick" but at the same time, her power is out there ripping life out of people and stuff and doing all kinds of interesting things that we only have a limited perspective on, all because it is being wielded by a Mortal with Free Will.

The end thoughts to that post were supposed to lead to the conclusion that as a higher echelon being spins off power, the resulting power becomes more influential on the ground level, and thus although the original being might be even more restricted, that being's power has a net effect of influencing things more.

Edit:  I'd like to add that one of the more Meta underpinnings of how that theory works is that Mortal Free Will is what determines how these "PCPs" manifest in the mortal realm but also that these choices also are places where alternate realms split off and diversify causing these powers to manifest differently (to varying degrees).  The higher echelon "aeons" span larger degrees of realities, while the lower echelons are more limited in what realities they interact with.  It seems to me that these lesser echelons are the means through which these higher echelons do interact with the various realities.

[knnn]

I swear, a while back, there was a WoJ that Uriel might not be an archangel that has existed from the dawn of time; instead, he might be a being that believes he is. 

Wait what?! 

Combine that with the WoJ about how super-powered beings cannot be crazy because they have the ability to change reality to suit their views and you can come up with really radical grand-unified-reality theories. 

Heck something along the lines of:  Humans believe that world is 6000 years old => Creates Uriel who believes the same => changes the universe so it really is only 6000 years old might work.  'course you've still got the problem of the 65 million year old Sue, but that's a minor point.  Right?   

[Foxed]

The gnostic connection is interesting vis a vis Sophia, one of the Aeons.

(click to show/hide)

In Valentinian gnosticism, she created a deformed Aeon (according to the misogyny rampant in these old patriarchal religions, this deformity was because she conceived the Aeon without the aid of a male Aeon, but uh... we'll quietly ignore that for now).

The deformed Aeon, thinking he was the only being in the universe, created the material realm, which is inherently corrupt because of his influence. He also created Adam in Sophia's image (which he glimpsed as a reflection in the water when she peeked at what she'd made). Sophia sent spiritual Eve to imbue Adam with spirit. The deformed Aeon's goons caught Eve, but her spirit fled into the tree before she was defiled. The spirit, then, as the Serpent, gets Adam and Eve to eat of the tree and the rest, as you know, is slightly skewed religion.

The rest of gnosticism positions the deformed Aeon, the "Demiurge", as the Old Testament God and Jesus as an emanation from Sophia and the true God, the Light from Which the Aeons emanate. Perhaps Hecate is an emanation of Sophia and the White God an emanation from a male Aeon?

I mean, pare away the fiddly bits so Jim can keep not offending active religions, and you might have something there.

[Serack]

I'd say that is an excellent interpretation attempt as long as we keep in mind that "aeons" and "emanations" are flawed attempts to explain something vast and that the characters within the DV have limited information about and that we as outside observers have even less information about.

Edit:  I tried to conveigh this in my theory post by first emphasizing my ignorance, and then irreverently describing the act of "emanating" a sub-aeon as "pooping."

[Yuillegan]

Ah yes thank you, that's quite helpful. I start to see how something Mortals in the DV might see as a God, give them a Name and responsibilities might change an Aeon into something much more limited than it actually is. Or rather, the limits on Aeons are imposed by Choice. Choice defines Power, so no matter how much juice something has - it's useless until a Choice is made. Perhaps some Aeons have more Juice to power larger Choices. Maybe that's what Uriel meant when he "spoke" through Michael - Choices are what change reality, not power and these Choices create their own realities where "good" or "evil" prevail.

I guess Hecate might merely be the accepted view in the DV for something much greater than a minor Greek Goddess. She had so much power she had to be create something else to change what she was perceived as, for whatever goal. Perhaps to prevent the dissolution of a reality, or of many realities.

I certainly thought the Gnostic ideas where fascinating. I think if it were to be applied to DV, assume that the Almighty is the Sophia character (Or at least, an enormous entity that believes itself to be the Almighty in the DV) and that God created a deformed Aeon which we'll call Lucifer who rebelled in order to have Choice, but refused to let go of Power so could not get Free Will and therefore everything Lucifer does is really serving the Almighty's purposes. Also the WOJ about Uriel not necessarily being who we think he is is intriguing. Anyone know where that WOJ is? What is Uriel if he isn't actually an archangel? What is his real purpose, apart from the one he believes?

[Foxed]

So here is a question, is there any Arab or Islamic mythology that would fit his role?

Not really. I always thought he got the Gatekeeper job after offing the Mad Arab Abdul al-Hazred.

(Also, I found several more crazy theories to add to my first post!)

[knnn]

Citation, please? I'm honestly curious, because it makes more sense that Baba Yaga is a name for Mother Winter and yet I'm straining trying to peg the original beings behind the retired Mother Summer and the current Mother Summer.

Just ran across this one:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36681.msg1761581.html#msg1761581

So, if someone whacks the being that is, for all intents and purposes, Baba Yaga, and then Mab succeeds, then Mab becomes the new Baba Yaga, and Molly gets drawn up to Mab, and they have to find someone else to become the new Lady.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Oh, can I put my "Nemesis infected the WG about two millennia ago, causing it to go from Old Testament fire and brimstone to peace and love all the time, stop being near so good at defending the Outer Gates, and kick all the other deities off Earth" notion here ?  Of ideas I've had that I'm near-absolutely sure are wrong, that's probably the one that makes most plausible sense of a bunch of odd and disparate datapoints.

[Foxed]

I'm all for no-evidence theories that clear up datapoints. But that's crazy.

(This from the man who has theorized that, 1, Vaderrung is Thor "Youngfather", who has ascended to Odin's position as Allfather, and 2, Harry Dresden is unstuck in time. So, you know. If I think something is farfetched...)

Perhaps by becoming human for a short while, the White God was able to add a certain quantity of free will to Himself, and that's how he turned to Love Thy Neighbor?

[Foxed]

The Summer Court protects the Inner Gates.

This theory is, of course, baseless, but there's a certain sense to it.

The Winter Court protects reality from the cold oblivion of Outside at the Outer Gates.

The Summer Court protects humanity from the Winter Court.

That doesn't strike me as balance enough (and yeah, I'm the kind of sap who pretends Anakin brought balance by wiping out the Jedi and the Sith, not just by wiping out the Emperor, so precedent is against me, but...). I propose that, unbeknownst to most of Winter (much like Winter's duties aren't known to most of Summer), Summer has more purpose than we've been led to think. And no, I don't mean there's an Insider army that Summer defends reality from militarily.

Behind these hypothetical Inner Gates is the core of all reality. The fiery creative force, emotion, love, what have you, that beats. Summer, then, is the crew watching for meltdown and managing the core radiating into our middle realm. Aurora, then, would have been infected by the core, not Nemesis.

[EDIT: And I think that Core is the World Tree, Yggdrasil, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good And Evil.]

Summer protects humanity from the core melting down, and protects humanity from Winter.

Winter protects reality from the Outside, and protects reality from Summer.

Again, I know, no evidence for it, but I think it at least slots into the cosmic mechanism as we know it.

[Nomad]

Mirror Mirror is the time travel book

A minor quibble, I don't really see MM as a time travel book in the classical sense.  That would be too "easy". Yes our Dresden (Harry) will be on an alternate timeline (of, let's call him Larry Dresden for ease of use) trying to fix things but if the time travel scenario starts being used (by Harry, going to the past of Larry's life) then I fully expect temporality become unglued by the end of second third of the book, resulting in a 4d speed chess between Dresden and ze Bad guy (probably a very heavy weight outsider entity that has/had managed to enter Larry's universe after things really went to hell) which ramps up to a full blown 6d speed chess as we near the finale of the book.

Ps: For those of you trying to understand the 10 dimensions theory; http://youtu.be/p4Gotl9vRGs