Curbing Wizard Power Creep (house-rule)

[Taran]

I hope this doesn't devolve as the topic of nerfing/buffing magic seems to do often.

It shouldn't since it's a discussion about a house-rule and not a discussion about whether or not they should be nerfed.  Our group has already made that decision.

This. I. like. Absolutely sensible rule.

Thank-you

First, I don't think your math is correct.

That may be true.  It often isn't and my kids were getting off the bus as I was typing.  So let's figure it out.

Before you use your Foci you would have 18 potential Foci Slots. Five Foci slots devoted to Crafting Strength and now you have 13. That's not including any other Specializations you might take and those are less efficient for these purposes but I think a laser-focused crafter would go for the extra boost anyway.

Let's repost this first:

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[-3] Thaumaturgy (Divination +1)
[-7] Refinement
    -Enchanted Items (28 Slots):

Total item slots: 32

-Iron Man Armor (Iron Man): 8 Block or Armor:4  1 shift duration, 3 times per session (6 slots)
-Weirding Module (Dune): 5 shift Thunder area attack, 3 times per session (4 slots)
-Type-2 Phaser Pistol (Star Trek): 7 Shift Fire attack, 3 times per session (4 slot)
-ACME Magnet (Looney Tunes): 5 shift Disarm Maneuver, 3 times per session (2 slots)
-Lightsaber (Star Wars): 9 shift Weapon attack, 3 times per session (6 slots)
-Neuralyzer (Men In Black): 5 shift mental attack, 1 times per session (1 slot)
-Ghost Goggles (Ghostbusters) 7 shift Alertness Replacement, 1 time per session (3 slot)
-Hoverboard (Back to the Future) 7 shift Athletics replacement for movement, 1 times per session (3 slot)
-3 Potion slots: Power 5 (3 slots)

EDIT:  I did make a mistake on the items because I forgot to account for the original enchanted item, so I had 9 slots too many.  Corrected. I did a quick fix so those items aren't really ideally set up.


Pretty sure my math is right here:
- Thaumaturgy gives 2 focus items
- 7 refinements gives 14 focus items.
- 16 focus items.
That's 32 enchanted item slots.
If that is correct, then my item list is correct.


Now, if I use Crafting Foci for power, I'd use 2 refinements to give me a +4 crafting power focus item.  I'd use my bonus specialization to give me an additional +1 for a total of +5 crafting Power.

That leaves me 5 refinements and two focus slots from thaumaturgy: 12 slots =24 enchanted item slots.

That's those same 9 items at Power 10, leaving me with 15 enchanted item slots to boost each one to 3 uses and 6 to 5 uses

Edited more math.

Second without the assumption that you can use two foci at the same time, how does this compare to other casters who's magic refreshes on the scale of scenes as opposed to sessions? Or Resources heavy characters who can acquire a nearly infinite amount of gear. Lesser modifications would, in fact make a difference, just not as much as your original idea.

I hope you took a close look at the homebrew character sheet.  It gets multiple 8 shift attacks and has a total of 10 different abilities useable multiple times.  That's within the power of a submerged party.  They get refreshed every session.  I count 18 charges + 3 potion slots.

The average wizard can cast 4 spells in a fight before taking consequences.  That means, in a session, you'd have 5 different encounters in a single session to get more mileage than the crafter.

Resource heavy characters can't get weapon 10 items.  Grenades and missiles cap out around weapon 5 or 6.  At higher refresh, a crafter is looking at weapon 12 items which widens the gap even more.  So, I think we've kept a crafter viable.


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Specializations don't use offense/defense limitations only focus items do that, so it would still be 3 specialties.

I knew this.  I just missed the mistake when I posted. 

However, if you wanted more, you could split the focus item limit into focus item power and focus item control giving 4 specialties.  This broadens the pyramid, but can make it difficult to have equal power and control limits on your focus items.  This would likely cause you to split power and control focus items for the same element rather than simply grouping them into one.

That seems complicated

Overall though, I think you should be careful with the idea of adding this to the pyramid and giving Focused Practitioners specializations.  Currently, specializations are twice as efficient as as focus items and can't be lost.  Focused practitioners are forced to use focus items because they can't purchase specializations.  I'm not positive about the math on this, but it may be more efficient to just use their refinements to purchase specializations and ignore the focus specializations except to bolster the pyramid and boost the elemental specializations and thus resorting only to focus items after they maxed out their pyramid.  In a way this almost obsoletes focus items except where they're free.

You might consider separating the focus specialization from the pyramid and specializations in general and just allow spellcasters to use refinement to boost their focus item limit.  It's a much simpler solution and changes the RAW less.

This is a good idea.  Would you get 2 focus boosts/ point of refinement?  It seems fair a good way to do it.

[Theogony_IX]

I knew this.  I just missed the mistake when I posted. 

Word.

That seems complicated

Agreed.

This is a good idea.  Would you get 2 focus boosts/ point of refinement?  It seems fair a good way to do it.

You can look at this similar to a stunt that reads

[-1] Focused Tools (Lore) - For the purpose of creating your focus items, you get a (+1 / +2) to your Lore.  You may take this stunt multiple times.

Given that it's a power and not a stunt, +2 seems reasonable, but given that you can take it multiple times, maybe not.  I'd probably go with +1, but honestly let's see how it looks at the extremes.


With a +2 bonus to Lore per each

Lore = 4
-2 Channeling
-7 Refinement

3 Refinement to boost gives maximum focus item slots = 10
4 Refinements to focus items + 2 from Channeling = 10 focus item slots
+5 offensive power, +5 offensive control

With Conviction and Discipline at 5, that's a 10 shift offensive rote with your focus item.  You're a glass canon though.

EDIT: This breaks the max of each focus item = Lore rule, but at +4 and +4 that's still a 9 shift rote and 4 enchanted item slots, or whatever else you want to do with the other 2 slots.  +1 power and control for defensive spells gives you a 6 shift defensive rote too.  Maybe there isn't enough of a difference at the extremes to tell.  Maybe stat up a more balanced character and see how that feels.  See below.


With a +1 bonus to Lore per each

Lore = 4
-2 Channeling
-7 Refinement

3 Refinement to boost gives maximum focus item slots = 7
4 Refinements to focus items + 2 from Channeling = 10 focus item slots
Trade in 3 for enchanted item slots = 7 focus item slots, and 6 enchanted item slots
+3 offensive power, +4 offensive control
1 enchanted item creating a 7 shift block with 5 uses per session

With Conviction and Discipline at 5, that's an 8 shift offensive rote with your focus item.  Still pretty impressive and you're forced into a little variety too.


I'd start with +1 per refinement and see how it feels on real characters.


EDIT: With a +1 bonus to Lore per each

Lore = 4
-2 Channeling
-2 Ritual
-4 Refinement
-1 Stunt

2 Refinement to boost gives maximum focus item slots = 6
2 Refinements to focus items + 4 from spellcasting = 8 focus item slots
Trade in 2 for enchanted item slots = 6 focus item slots, and 4 enchanted item slots
+3 offensive power, +3 offensive control
1 enchanted item creating a 5 shift block with 5 uses per session.

 With Conviction and Discipline = 5, that's still pretty good.

[Centarion]

When I said I interpreted it to mean you couldn't apply more focus item bonus than your lore to any one spell, I was referring to your house rule.

Did you mean to say that you couldn't have more bonuses in focus items than you had lore, among all of your focci? Because that seems like it would seriously cut back on the ability to make characters with several types of powerful magic, whereas I thought your intent was to stop the +5 offensive control and +5 offensive power Wizard from blasting way too hard.

Limiting the amount of focus item bonus per spell solves that problem while still allowing a character to have Thaum control/complexity focci, or a shield bracelet and a blasting wand.

[Taran]

EDIT: With a +1 bonus to Lore per each

Lore = 4
-2 Channeling
-2 Ritual
-4 Refinement
-1 Stunt

2 Refinement to boost gives maximum focus item slots = 6
2 Refinements to focus items + 4 from spellcasting = 8 focus item slots
Trade in 2 for enchanted item slots = 6 focus item slots, and 4 enchanted item slots
+3 offensive power, +3 offensive control
1 enchanted item creating a 5 shift block with 5 uses per session.

 With Conviction and Discipline = 5, that's still pretty good.

I like it.  I'm curious to hear from the others in my group. 

When I said I interpreted it to mean you couldn't apply more focus item bonus than your lore to any one spell, I was referring to your house rule.

Did you mean to say that you couldn't have more bonuses in focus items than you had lore, among all of your focci? Because that seems like it would seriously cut back on the ability to make characters with several types of powerful magic, whereas I thought your intent was to stop the +5 offensive control and +5 offensive power Wizard from blasting way too hard.

Limiting the amount of focus item bonus per spell solves that problem while still allowing a character to have Thaum control/complexity focci, or a shield bracelet and a blasting wand.

Yes, I meant IN TOTAL.  So if your Lore is 4, you can't have more than +4 of total focus bonuses.  I've revised it, thinking that it should be per power.  So, with a Lore of 4 and thaumaturgy and Evocation, you could have a total of +4 control/complexity(thaum) foci and a total of control/Power(evo) foci.

It would severely limit it but it would limit it to the same levels as other templates.

Your suggestion is a good one, though.  If you have a +5 control and +5 power focus, can I choose, at the time of casting, how much goes into a spell?  What about rotes?

I'd also considered limiting it per ELEMENT.  So a wizard would be better in multiple elements - spending his refinements to boost various elements while a focused practitioner (who only has one element) would spend refinements to buy focus upgrades in his element.  Which would, naturally, make a focused practitioner better than a wizard in his chosen element, given the same number of refinements and skill level.  Although, Wizard specializations would tip the scale against the focused practitioner.

that idea seems complicated when you add it to focus upgrades.  Do the upgrades apply to all elements across the board or to one specific element?  The former seems easier.

Both solutions(the 'per spell' and the 'per element') limit  the relatively cheap ability to add massive weapon values and accuracy.  The question is which is the most elegant.

EDIT:  the limit only applies to focus ITEMS not focus SLOTS.  So if your lore is 4 and you have 6 focus slots, you can have 4 foci and turn the remaining 2 into 4 enchanted item slots.

[Sanctaphrax]

Seems like a pretty sensible set of house rules.

What I like is that these rules don't really change the game in play. They're mostly just indirect bans on potentially-problematic character types.

(I'm not going to talk about whether I think they're really problematic here.)

I'm not sure you need the stuff about focused practitioners, though. I think just saying "one focus per spell, no crafting foci (and maybe no crafting specializations)" would accomplish your needs pretty cleanly.

Then again, it's not a bad thing to make focused practitioners less inferior to full casters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpreted the focus item limit is that you can't apply more bonus than your lore to any one spell. So you could still have 2 different +5 focus items with 5 lore, but you couldn't use them on the same spell. For example, a +5 offensive control item and a +5 defensive control item would be fine, since they would never apply to the same spells.

The focus item section of YS (page 279) says "You can't benefit from the same type of bonus (eg., a control bonus) from two or more items at the same time - so if you had two items, one with a +2 control bonus and another with a +1 control bonus, the total effect is a +2 to control." As far as I know that's all the book has to say on the matter.

Currently, specializations are twice as efficient as as focus items and can't be lost.

For evocation. For thaumaturgy they're the same, apart from the non-losable-ness thing.

[Taran]

Seems like a pretty sensible set of house rules.

Thanks

Then again, it's not a bad thing to make focused practitioners less inferior to full casters.

I was seeing if something could be worked out that way but I'm not sure it's a simple fix....limiting Foci to Lore based on element might be the best way but, at most, it makes a wizard in his specialty as good as a focused practitioner and, if they choose to buy focus specializations and put all their specializations into that one element, they'll still be better.

Focused practitioners need their own way of progressing but I'm not sure how to do it without making it eclipse Wizards.  Then again, there's lots of non-spell casting ways of making focused practitioners more versatile in their element by giving them powers etc...which has been discussed ad nauseam, so I don't think it's worth delving into it.

So what if you limit foci to your Lore per element (or type, for thaumaturgy).  Focus boosts are bought per power.  So buying one for evocation or channeling boosts you foci limit for all elements by 1.  If you want to boost it for types of Thaumaturgy or ritual, you have to buy it separately.

Evothaum is considered an evocation element for the purpose of sponsored magic (or thaumaturgy, if that's how your group decides).

[Theogony_IX]

The above thought is a little unclear, but if you're trying to make Focused Practitioners less inferior to full spectrum casters, you could offer 3 focus item slots per Refinement to Channeling thus closing the gap some between specializations and focus item slots.  This wouldn't be appropriate for Ritual since, as Sanctaphrax pointed out, focus items for thaumaturgic spells are just as efficient as specializations.  Just be sure that if they take 3 rather than 2, those 3 go to Channeling focus items.

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For comparison to the last model presented above.

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Build 1

Lore = 4
-2 Channeling
-2 Ritual
-4 Refinement
-1 Stunt

3 Refinement to boost gives maximum focus item slots = 7
1 Refinements to focus items + 4 from spellcasting = 7 focus item slots
+3 offensive power, +4 offensive control

An extra shift of accuracy to the previous example.
8 shift, 9 accuracy offensive spells.
5 shift defensive spells.


Build 2

Lore = 4
-2 Channeling
-2 Ritual
-4 Refinement
-1 Stunt

2 Refinement to boost gives maximum focus item slots = 6
2 Refinements to focus items + 4 from spellcasting = 10 focus item slots
Trade in 4 for enchanted item slots = 6 focus item slots, and 8 enchanted item slots
+3 offensive power, +3 offensive control
1 enchanted item creating a 7 shift block with 5 uses per session
2 open potion slots

Quite a bit extra in enchanted items, good boost to versatility
8 shift, 8 accuracy offensive spells
7 shift defensive item
2, 4 shift additional effects

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Lore = 4
-3 Evocation
-3 Thaumaturgy
-1 Wizardy Stuff
-2 Refinement

1 Refinement for specializations
1 Refinement to focus items + 4 from spellcasting = 6 focus item slots
Trade in 2 for enchanted item slots = 4 focus item slots and 4 enchanted item slots
Focus Item: +2 offensive power element, +2 offensive control element
Specializations: +1 element power, +2 element control
1 enchanted item creating a 5 shift effect with 5 uses per session.

8 shift, 9 accuracy offensive spells
6 shift defensive spells
5 shift additional effect

From what I can see there isn't a huge gap here though the Focused Practitioner is still a bit weaker if only a bit.  The Wizard is noticeably more well rounded as far as spellcraft is concerned with the Focused Practitioner needing to resort to enchanted items to keep up.  Thematically, this makes sense though.