Curbing Wizard Power Creep (house-rule)

[Taran]

Our group has put in house-rules to curb Wizards and Crafters to prevent them from becoming much more powerful than other templates - especially at higher refresh.

Our rules have encouraged buying Focus specialties but we're still hammering out some details on allowing specialties for Focused Practitioners.

Here's what we've done:

Foci Limited by Lore

The common interpretation is that EACH focus item must not be greater than your Lore.  By that interpretation, I can use 5 refinement to add +5 Power and +5 accuracy to an offensive element.  In a submerged game, I could take channelling and 5 refinements and have accuracy 10; Weapon 10 attacks.  Whereas a fighter type could squeeze out accuracy 7; weapon 8.

We've changed that rule.  Your TOTAL foci are limited by your Lore.  If you want more, you have to take a focus specialization to boost it by one. 
Of course, that means focused practitioners get the short end of the stick because they don't get specializations...sooooo....

Specializations**

All spell casters get specializations.  Ritual/Channeling doesn't come with the bonus specialization like evocation/thaum does, but you can use refinements to buy specializations in your element and to boost your total focus bonus.

Crafting

Not only have we limited focus items, we've ELIMINATED crafting focus items.  The way it's written, you could buy thaumaturgy and then buy 5 refinements worth of Crafting Strength and Crafting Frequency to have Power 10; Frequency: 6 items.  (that doesn't include any specializations)

Instead, you can only boost your enchanted items with enchanted item slots.  One slots boosts the frequency of 1 item by 2 or boosts the Strength of one item by 1.

**by allowing specializations with focused practitioners, we're worried it makes evocation/thaumaturgy not worth the refresh.  While Wizards can have higher pyramids, it only comes into play at very high refresh.   There was a discussion of only allowing them focus specializations but you can't create a pyramid with only one specialization.

We are using these rules and, so far, they work fine but we're only at submerged.  We have yet to encounter any focused practitioners so our lack of a good solution on specializations hasn't been an issue yet.

thoughts?

[Cadd]

Crafting

Not only have we limited focus items, we've ELIMINATED crafting focus items.  The way it's written, you could buy thaumaturgy and then buy 5 refinements worth of Crafting Strength and Crafting Frequency to have Power 10; Frequency: 6 items.  (that doesn't include any specializations)

Instead, you can only boost your enchanted items with enchanted item slots.  One slots boosts the frequency of 1 item by 2 or boosts the Strength of one item by 1.

I'm assuming, due to the first paragraph quoted that you still allow specializations in Crafting Strength and Frequency? The second paragraph aort of implies you don't, though.

[Taran]

My impression, from our discussions, is we've gotten rid of crafting bonuses. The only way to boost crafting is with enchanted item slots. 

Haru and/or bobjob can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Haru]

Yeah, items can only be boosted by adding enchanted item slots. That basically gets rid of the extreme boost a single point of specialization can give you on your enchanted items, especially the more items you've got. It also means that powerful enchanted items get really big.

[Cadd]

That would be a bit harsh in my mind, as the specializations still need to follow a pyramid.

Edit due to ninja post: Hm... You might be right here. Right off it feels like an over-nerf of crafters, at least the "one trick among several", not hyper-specialized crafters.

One the whole, I like it. There's one thing with the Lore cap on foci, but I don't think it's too much of an issue: someone starting with both Evocation and Thaumaturgy need to have Great Lore to actually get full use of the freebie focus item slots.
Of course that's not exactly unlikely, and you can always trade "excess" focus slots for Enchanted Item slots, so it's probably not a significant problem.

I'm also not entirely clear on the Focus specialization though. As it stands, it's a Thaumaturgy spec, but this would make pure evokers need to be able to buy it. Could then someone with both choose which pyramid to buy it in?

[Centarion]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpreted the focus item limit is that you can't apply more bonus than your lore to any one spell. So you could still have 2 different +5 focus items with 5 lore, but you couldn't use them on the same spell. For example, a +5 offensive control item and a +5 defensive control item would be fine, since they would never apply to the same spells.

[Taran]

@Cadd:  The limit on crafting is not as bad as you think.  We built a character using the original rules and our house-rules to see the comparison. I'll post them and address your other questions  when I get home.

@Centurion:  I don't think that's the common interpretation. RAW seems to imply that you cannot stack multiple foci and must take the highest value.  It also seems to imply that each foci is capped at your Lore.  Could you quote where you read your interpretation?  It's interesting. 

[Theogony_IX]

**by allowing specializations with focused practitioners, we're worried it makes evocation/thaumaturgy not worth the refresh.  While Wizards can have higher pyramids, it only comes into play at very high refresh.   There was a discussion of only allowing them focus specializations but you can't create a pyramid with only one specialization.

In my opinion, Thaumaturgy is still worth the extra refresh through sheer variety.  No character with Ritual is able to set up a ward, throw up a lasting veil, and pick from a wide variety of Nevernever creatures to summon all while having cool crafted items (except for maybe a Ritual Crafter - broken is broken but you have a possible fix for that in the works).  Evocation and Channeling are a different story though.  The variety granted by Evocation has diminishing returns which is corrected for in the specialization pyramid.

To put some space between the two levels of powers at lower refresh games you could, for Ritual and Channeling only, have the option to use specializations to boost your total focus item bonus cost half of a Refinement. Normally a new element in Evocation costs a whole Refinement, but you get an active effect.  Since you aren't getting an active effect, but you still get the option to widen your specialization pyramid, making it cost half of a Refinement makes sense.

[Haru]

That would be a bit harsh in my mind, as the specializations still need to follow a pyramid.

Edit due to ninja post: Hm... You might be right here. Right off it feels like an over-nerf of crafters, at least the "one trick among several", not hyper-specialized crafters.

Well, at least the way I see it, the enchanted items per the rules were meant to be a supplement to your casting rather than a replacement. And they work very well in that regard. They only really become problematic when they are used in a crafting only built. Per RAW, you can easily outclass any spellcaster, while being able to do more powerful and more reliant and simply more spells. At that point, the rules sort of break apart.

For a pure crafter built, I actually prefer to let go of magic completely and just go with items of power. Yes, the crafter is that good, he can create items that he can use as often as he needs. Another way to go could be with a faux-magic sort of built, giving the character full magic powers, but narrating it that he's "got just the item prepared for the occasion". It's easy to compel as well.

I'm also not entirely clear on the Focus specialization though. As it stands, it's a Thaumaturgy spec, but this would make pure evokers need to be able to buy it. Could then someone with both choose which pyramid to buy it in?

I would say he can buy it in both, and would need to, depending on how many focus item he wants for each power.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpreted the focus item limit is that you can't apply more bonus than your lore to any one spell. So you could still have 2 different +5 focus items with 5 lore, but you couldn't use them on the same spell. For example, a +5 offensive control item and a +5 defensive control item would be fine, since they would never apply to the same spells.

That's up for debate. I've seen more people come down on the "you can use 2 focus items on any spell, as long as you don't combine the same bonus" side of it. It would still give you a relatively cheap +3/+2 focus item for crafting, and the examples we built like this were only slightly less broken than the other version, because the loss of focus bonuses could be easily compensated with specializations.

[Taran]

First:  Here's are the builds (credit: bobjob)
Note:  Power is capped at Lore X2 as recommended in YS.

(click to show/hide)

HIGH CONCEPT:
The Cinematic Artificer

SKILLS:
+5 Superb: Lore, Guns
+4 Great: Craftsmanship, Weapons

POWERS:
Sonic Screwdriver [-9]
Description: A masterwork quality replica of Doctor Who's sonic screw driver... or is it?
Musts: Must have an aspect related to your possession of this item
Skills Affected:
Effects:
[-1] It Is What It Is: a handheld device that has a blue light on one end that activates when you press a button
[-0] Unbreakable. As an Item of Power, this item cannot be broken except with a magical ritual that opposes its nature.
[+1] One Time Discount. Can be hidden in a pocket
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Crafting Power +1)
[-7] Refinement
    -Specialization: +1 Crafting Frequency, +1 Crafting Power
    -Focus Item: Prop Chest: +3 Crafting Power
    -Focus Item: Cosplayer Toolbox +5 Crafting Frequency
    -Enchanted Items (12 Slots):

-Iron Man Armor (Iron Man): 10 Block or Armor:5, 7 times per session (1 slots)
-Weirding Module (Dune): 8 shift Thunder area attack, 7 times per session (1 slot)
-Type-2 Phaser Pistol (Star Trek): 10 Shift Fire attack, 7 times per session (1 slot)
-ACME Magnet (Looney Tunes): 8 shift area Disarm Maneuver, 7 times per session (1 slot)
-Lightsaber (Star Wars): 10 shift Weapon attack, 7 times per session (1 slots)
-Neuralyzer (Men In Black): 10 shift mental attack, 7 times per session (1 slot)
-Ghost Goggles (Ghostbusters) 10 shift Alertness Replacement, 7 times per session (1 slot)
-Hoverboard (Back to the Future) 10 shift Athletics replacement for movement, 7 times per session (1 slot)

3 Open Enchanted Item Slots for potions.


Refresh Level: 10
Modified Refresh: -9
Total Refresh: 1

Math for Build 1

Thaum provides 1 free specialization and 2 free focus items. Used for Specialization Power +1 and Focus +1/+1 Power Frequency

1 Refinement to boost Specialization +1/+1 for total +2/+1
4 Refinement spent for +3 Power/+5 Frequency.
3 Refinement spent on 12 Enchanted Item slots

Crafting Power Bonus: 5
Lore: 5
Total: 10

Crafting Frequency Bonus: 6
Base Frequency: 1
Total: 7

You'll notice that all these items are 1 slot, so as small as a ring  - despite the description.

(click to show/hide)

HIGH CONCEPT:
The Cinematic Artificer

SKILLS:
+5 Superb: Lore, Guns
+4 Great: Craftsmanship, Weapons

POWERS:
Sonic Screwdriver [-9]
Description: A masterwork quality replica of Doctor Who's sonic screw driver... or is it?
Musts: Must have an aspect related to your possession of this item
Skills Affected:
Effects:
[-1] It Is What It Is: a handheld device that has a blue light on one end that activates when you press a button
[-0] Unbreakable. As an Item of Power, this item cannot be broken except with a magical ritual that opposes its nature.
[+1] One Time Discount. Can be hidden in a pocket
[-3] Thaumaturgy (Divination +1)
[-7] Refinement
    -Enchanted Items (28 Slots):

Total item slots: 32


-Iron Man Armor (Iron Man): 8 Block or Armor:4  1 shift duration, 3 times per session (6 slots)
-Weirding Module (Dune): 5 shift Thunder area attack, 3 times per session (4 slots)
-Type-2 Phaser Pistol (Star Trek): 7 Shift Fire attack, 3 times per session (4 slot)
-ACME Magnet (Looney Tunes): 5 shift Disarm Maneuver, 3 times per session (2 slots)
-Lightsaber (Star Wars): 9 shift Weapon attack, 3 times per session (6 slots)
-Neuralyzer (Men In Black): 5 shift mental attack, 1 times per session (1 slot)
-Ghost Goggles (Ghostbusters) 7 shift Alertness Replacement, 1 time per session (3 slot)
-Hoverboard (Back to the Future) 7 shift Athletics replacement for movement, 1 times per session (3 slot)
-3 Potion slots: Power 5 (3 slots)

EDIT:  I did make a mistake on the items because I forgot to account for the original enchanted item, so I had 9 slots too many.  Corrected. I did a quick fix so those items aren't really ideally set up.

Except armour and Lightsaber they are still, the size of a ring, but the power has been toned down.  If you want to go with less items and more power/frequency, you can but the item will grow in size.

I'm also not entirely clear on the Focus specialization though. As it stands, it's a Thaumaturgy spec, but this would make pure evokers need to be able to buy it. Could then someone with both choose which pyramid to buy it in?

My interpretation was focus specializations was a part of crafting and since both evocation and thaumaturgy, ritual and channelling get foci, they can specialize in it.  If that's not the case, we'd just house-rule it.

I don't know what you mean by which pyramid.  There's only one pyramid.  You don't have a thaum pyramid and an evocation pyramid.  They just get lumped together into one big one.

@Theogony_IX: an interesting idea...

[PirateJack]

There are separate pyramids for Thaumaturgy and Evocation.

You can’t have a +3 bonus until you also have a +2 and a +1. If you have two bonuses at +2, you must have two more at +1, etc.

The same goes for thaumaturgic types and complexity/control bonuses, but when you’re calculating, look at Evocation and Thaumaturgy separately - if you have a +1 complexity bonus to divinations and you want a +2, having a +1 power bonus in water evocation isn't going to help you. You need to take another thaumaturgic specialization at +1.

[MadAlchemist]

PirateJack beat me to the post, but yeah different pyramids.
My comments are under the assumption that you can not use more than one Focus Item at a time. If you want your casting to have +Power and +Control from foci it needs to be one item. (Or specific group of items, pair of gloves ect.)
I am quite biased on the topic, if my pseudonym isn't an indicator already, I love crafters. It's the human way to succeed. I will agree that frequency bonuses need to go entirely, but I would call Foci Strength and Enchanting Strength fairly balanced on their own. Has anyone tried just removing Frequency? 

[Taran]

There are separate pyramids for Thaumaturgy and Evocation.

Well, that solves the problem with giving focused practitioners specializations.  Their pyramids won't be nearly as high as full wizards.

Channeling would give them power/control/offense/defense in one element...
Ritual would give them complexity/control.

Thematic Ritual casters - like demonologists, could have a, potentially, bigger pyramid if you allow sub-specialties: demonic summoning; demonic wards etc...

Focus specializations could go into whichever pyramid, I suppose.   I don't necessarily like it, though.  Focus items, unlike specializations aren't dependant on which power you take. As far as I know, you can use the focus slots from thaumaturgy and use them to boost your evocation foci.  We could expand the Focus limit to make it separate for Thaum/ritual and Channelling/evocation.

So you have a foci limit for each power.  You can use foci specializations to boost the limit for each power.  In which case you would have it in each pyramid.  hmmm....

so your pyramids would be based on

Channeling: power/control/offense/defense in one element and channelling focus specialization (5 specialties)
Ritual: complexity/control and Ritual focus specialization. (3 specialties)

I like that better.

PirateJack beat me to the post, but yeah different pyramids.
My comments are under the assumption that you can not use more than one Focus Item at a time. If you want your casting to have +Power and +Control from foci it needs to be one item. (Or specific group of items, pair of gloves ect.)
I am quite biased on the topic, if my pseudonym isn't an indicator already, I love crafters. It's the human way to succeed. I will agree that frequency bonuses need to go entirely, but I would call Foci Strength and Enchanting Strength fairly balanced on their own. Has anyone tried just removing Frequency? 

It wouldn't make a difference.  If you look at my Home-brew example, I'd just save all the enchanted item slots I used to boost Power and use them to add frequency to each item.  After using my foci and specialties, I'd still have 16 slots.  That's 32 uses to spread around.  You'd end up with the same problem.

[MadAlchemist]

I hope this doesn't devolve as the topic of nerfing/buffing magic seems to do often.

We could expand the Focus limit to make it separate for Thaum/ritual and Channelling/evocation.

So you have a foci limit for each power.  You can use foci specializations to boost the limit for each power.  In which case you would have it in each pyramid.  hmmm....

so your pyramids would be based on

Channeling: power/control/offense/defense in one element and channelling focus specialization (5 specialties)
Ritual: complexity/control and Ritual focus specialization. (3 specialties)

I like that better.

This. I. like. Absolutely sensible rule.

It wouldn't make a difference.  If you look at my Home-brew example, I'd just save all the enchanted item slots I used to boost Power and use them to add frequency to each item.  After using my foci and specialties, I'd still have 16 slots.  That's 32 uses to spread around.  You'd end up with the same problem.

First, I don't think your math is correct. Before you use your Foci you would have 18 potential Foci Slots. Five Foci slots devoted to Crafting Strength and now you have 13. That's not including any other Specializations you might take and those are less efficient for these purposes but I think a laser-focused crafter would go for the extra boost anyway.

Second without the assumption that you can use two foci at the same time, how does this compare to other casters who's magic refreshes on the scale of scenes as opposed to sessions? Or Resources heavy characters who can acquire a nearly infinite amount of gear. Lesser modifications would, in fact make a difference, just not as much as your original idea. 

[Theogony_IX]

Channeling: power/control/offense/defense in one element and channelling focus specialization (5 specialties)

Specializations don't use offense/defense limitations only focus items do that, so it would still be 3 specialties.

Channeling: power, control, and focus item limit
Ritual: power, complexity, and focus item limit

However, if you wanted more, you could split the focus item limit into focus item power and focus item control giving 4 specialties.  This broadens the pyramid, but can make it difficult to have equal power and control limits on your focus items.  This would likely cause you to split power and control focus items for the same element rather than simply grouping them into one.


Overall though, I think you should be careful with the idea of adding this to the pyramid and giving Focused Practitioners specializations.  Currently, specializations are twice as efficient as as focus items and can't be lost.  Focused practitioners are forced to use focus items because they can't purchase specializations.  I'm not positive about the math on this, but it may be more efficient to just use their refinements to purchase specializations and ignore the focus specializations except to bolster the pyramid and boost the elemental specializations and thus resorting only to focus items after they maxed out their pyramid.  In a way this almost obsoletes focus items except where they're free.

You might consider separating the focus specialization from the pyramid and specializations in general and just allow spellcasters to use refinement to boost their focus item limit.  It's a much simpler solution and changes the RAW less.