Transmutation Alchemy

[Katarn]

So I've had a player asking if he could change lead into gold, as per alchemy in olden times.  Torn if I should allow it:

*Looking at the Thaumaturgy page in the book, "create lasting changes in people and things" is one of the things you can do.
*None of the Seven Laws apply.

I find nothing prohibiting it, but it seems odd that we've had no mention of that kind of ability in the books.

So my questions are:
a)  Do the books shed any light on the subject?
b)  As a GM, what would you do- allow it or not, and if so how?

[Haru]

I think the most important question would be: why?

If it's just to be able to buy all the stuff, the character could have high resources with a few stunts, and the explanation for why he is so rich would be that he can make his own gold.

If it's for one time only, a skill replacement for resources would be possible. But it he's trying to impress people with it, it might just as well be presence. Or even performance, if he makes a show out of it.

So the first question I would try to answer is why does he want to do this. The how comes after that and is very hard to answer without the first question.

[Sanctaphrax]

Context: my mortal character is trying to buy the assistance of a ghoul clan. I've talked them into accepting a deal, but they want a really ridiculous amount of gold. My character is rich, but not rich enough.

So we're thinking of having the wizard transmute a big pile of cheaper metal.

(If I were GMing I'd treat it as a Resources replacement and require extra shifts to make the transmutation last. 8 shifts base, plus duration. 16 shifts would suffice to make it last a year, so I'd charge 20ish shifts for permanency.

Of course, I'm a player so I'm a bit biased.)

Anyway, I think this has never been done in the books because it's hard, most Wizards don't particularly want more money, and it would make you look like a criminal if you suddenly pulled a bunch of gold out of nowhere.

[dragoonbuster]

Context: my mortal character is trying to buy the assistance of a ghoul clan. I've talked them into accepting a deal, but they want a really ridiculous amount of gold. My character is rich, but not rich enough.

So we're thinking of having the wizard transmute a big pile of cheaper metal.

(If I were GMing I'd treat it as a Resources replacement and require extra shifts to make the transmutation last. 8 shifts base, plus duration. 16 shifts would suffice to make it last a year, so I'd charge 20ish shifts for permanency.

Of course, I'm a player so I'm a bit biased.)

Anyway, I think this has never been done in the books because it's hard, most Wizards don't particularly want more money, and it would make you look like a criminal if you suddenly pulled a bunch of gold out of nowhere.

Exactly this. Shifts equal to the skill replacement needed, plus a shift per step above the base duration "a day." Technically, since you're transmuting, you should be adding shifts in to make the gold pass an Alertness/Investigation check (one shift per level above Mediocre), but I think that's overkill.

It isn't shown in the books because Harry just doesn't think it's moral to do something like this. The White Council frowns upon creating gold willy-nilly because it upsets economies, but there are no rules against it. I think Harry actually alludes that the White Council has used its collective power and longetivity to create its fortunes by partially doing this, in fact.

I also recall Harry discussing the creation of gold when he's going over the reasons behind why the Laws disallow some things but allow others, in...Small Favor, I think?

For PCs creating gold, there are two main issues: disbursing the gold, and what happens once the enchantment ends on your "fool's gold." If they don't put the effort into really making it last a long time, make it come back to haunt them. If they don't take great pains to sell it off carefully, have that come back to haunt them.

In this specific case, you don't need to worry about the first issue, unless the ghouls question how you were able to get a hold of such a ridiculous amount. For the duration issue, Ghouls live a long time, but putting enough shifts in makes the ramifications of the duration extend past the scope of the game and thus irrelevant.

[dragoonbuster]

I think the most important question would be: why?

If it's just to be able to buy all the stuff, the character could have high resources with a few stunts, and the explanation for why he is so rich would be that he can make his own gold.

This is how I would have a player approach this if it was going to be a common thing. Instead of stunts to boost Resources, might just have a stunt move a trapping or two from Resources over to Lore instead.

[potestas]

This is how I would have a player approach this if it was going to be a common thing. Instead of stunts to boost Resources, might just have a stunt move a trapping or two from Resources over to Lore instead.

you know i think your over thinking it. Dont worry about if it adds shifts tothis or that, just let him make the gold, its fun especially if in RL you're not particullarly rich. If he is transmuting something into something else it is clearly something wizards can and have done. harry is an idiot when it comes to money, he lives like an idiot and he overthinks things like an idiot. harry has no reason to live like a vagabond but he does. Their is nothing immoral about making a little bit of money with your talents. Hell governements all around the world print whatever money they want and they destroy entire econmies with that shit, I doubt a handful of coins would compare.

Why dont they just use mind magic on the ghouls make them permanent slaves, they aren't human.

[Sanctaphrax]

Dont worry about if it adds shifts tothis or that, just let him make the gold

No. Doing things requires effort. You can't just wave your hands and get whatever you want.

Their is nothing immoral about making a little bit of money with your talents. Hell governements all around the world print whatever money they want and they destroy entire econmies with that shit, I doubt a handful of coins would compare.

I don't see anything immoral about making gold either. Getting gold through magic and getting gold through mining seem pretty similar to me.

But I can't think of any economy that's been destroyed by money-printing. Usually hyper-inflation happens after the economy has been wrecked...and with things as they stand now, a bit more inflation would be very welcome.

Why dont they just use mind magic on the ghouls make them permanent slaves, they aren't human.

That would be immoral, and also suicidal.

[Katarn]

So the general consensus seems to be for the transmutation to have a "fool's gold" effect, and not be permanent.  I have no problem with this, and would explain why wizards don't generally do it (reputation of conning and such).

[Haru]

I would allow for permanent regular gold. It just isn't worth much in the circles that wizards run around in. Are you going to bribe a Fae with gold? Or pay a demon in gold? The supernatural world is very big on favors and power, not so much on gold or other riches. On the other hand, the mortal world is very interested, so by creating tons of gold for yourself, you are showing that you are quite powerful on the supernatural end, without securing yourself, and at the same time, you are turning yourself into a person of interest in the mortal world for being so rich.

Overall, while it might sound very tempting for a mortal, I don't see the appeal for a wizard. Given how long they live, they can take an easier way to get rich, if that's even something they want to do. It's going to be relatively easy for a wizard to live comfortably, without putting himself on the radar like that. Plus he might be too busy setting up his accounts on the supernatural side to go through the hassle of figuring out how to turn lead into gold.

[Taran]

Instead of turning lead into gold, he can use divination to predict turns in the markets and make money on the stock market.

It's the same ritual(resource skill replacement) but is probably easier to cover up...he'd need to pay taxes on it since it's a 'legit' income.

If you allow that then I don't see the problem with turning lead to gold. If he wants it to become rich, he should change one of his aspects and, as someone suggested, take a stunt to move resource declarations to lore.

Edit:  (read the context, and the pbp) the stock market trick would allow you to buy the gold, so you might not need duration...it would take longer to acquire, maybe.

[MijRai]

I would personally allow permanent gold, given enough shifts.  Less would be your leprechaun gold, more would be your real stuff, representing the transition between a temporary change and a permanent re-writing of reality.