Can Evocation create an aspect and do damage?

[citadel97501]

Hello all,

I was taking a look at Claws and its Venomous upgrade, and then I got to be thinking about Evocation but I wasn't sure if applying a weapon attack and creating an aspect or some other effect was legal for Evocation, so I thought I would ask the boards?

For instance, lets say I have a 5 power spell using Fire magic or Winter Sponsored Magic?
1) So I can be flinging around a 5 stress attack which just burns them...

2) Or could I have it apply a 2 stress attack, and apply an aspect of Frozen in Place?

3) What about applying a 2 stress attack, and applying a block of 3 on their actions until they break through it?

[Taran]

Evocation is pretty powerful and doing multiple tasks is more the realm of thaumaturgy or evothaum.  With that said, there's a few ways to go about it.

First: overflow
(YS214)

If the attack succeeds by over 3 shifts, you could put the shifts towards something like a maneuver.  The overflow rules are pretty adamant about having those extra shifts go towards something non-combat related.  Like a supplemental move.  I might allow for a scene aspect but probably not a targeted aspect.  It really depends on how lenient you want to be as a GM

Second:  Invoke for effect
Instead of doing damage, you do a powerful maneuver.  As a GM, I tend to look at the power of the maneuver and the amount of shifts that someone fails to defend and decide what happens.

I use the breaking/lifting chart as a guide for maneuvers.

Example:  If you hit someone with a power 8 'Wind-swept' maneuver, you invoke for effect. 
Invoke for effect is, basically, a compel.  So what's a fair compel?  How badly did they fail?  Is the maneuver sticky or fragile?

Then, I look at the power of the spell: 8.  The right kind of power 8 spell can, basically, smash through a brick wall or lift a car.  Hitting someone with that kind of power will probably do damage.  So I might say, he gets thrown back a zone or two and takes stress.  The stress and movement were all part of the compel.

If it was a mook, I'd say that a power 8 maneuver might take him out.  He gets blown out the window and is lying unconscious on the street (he concedes).  I think that's fair because a weapon 8 attack would have killed him anyways.

(this is my preferred method)

Third:  A stunt
I haven't really delved into this.  But it seems reasonable, that if you spend refresh on it, you could do something.  I would somehow restrict how many shifts get allocated to a specific task. 

Also, you should consider, do they have to make two dodge rolls?  one for the maneuver and one for the damage?  to dodge a maneuver, you dodge the Power of the spell.  To dodge an attack, you dodge the targeting roll. 
So what happens if, on their dodge roll, they fail to dodge the targeting roll but succeed in avoiding the maneuver?

It's something you'd have to work out.  I don't know the best way of doing it. 

***

Doing damage and blocks seems unfair, IMO.  As soon as you throw up a block against movement, you can no longer take supplemental moves because now they need to do a sprint action to move.(which totally F@#ks Characters with speed powers).  So it's always advantageous to throw up a 1 or 2 shift block along-side your weapon attack.

Or, if you have a low athletics, put up a 4-shift block along-side your weapon 2 attack.  Boost your discipline/control super high so that they take piles of stress from the targeting roll.  Now you're hitting them for 2=stress+shifts AND you're always dodging their attacks at 4 shifts.  Ugh.    And that's only a 6-shift spell.  You can easily pull that off at Chest Deep.

There's my 2 cents.

Edit: Another way is I'd allow you to hit someone with an ice attack, then spend a FP to say they are "frozen in place'.  I reward the target with said FP.

[citadel97501]

Thank you for your view on the matter, I personally just found that most of the spell attacks get ridiculous and allowing this option will prevent the whole Bazooka spell vs. mortal minion issue we see with Evocators. 

[Taran]

Thank you for your view on the matter, I personally just found that most of the spell attacks get ridiculous and allowing this option will prevent the whole Bazooka spell vs. mortal minion issue we see with Evocators.

Yeah.  I compel the hell out of wizards who do that.  If it's a mortal, you're limited to weapon 3, or non-attack spells.  If they turn down the compel, they can do whatever they want.  (but you can't do that all the time, obviously)

I personally think it's cheesy to hit someone with a weapon 8 fire evocation and say, "they are now unconscious".

There's other ways too.

I think if you allow them to do multiple attack types in a single casting, you're going to make them more powerful.  A swordman can't attack and block at the same time.  You're just offering a caster more flexibility that no other template can do.

If your player put all their foci into offense, then that's what limits them - use it against them.  I see no reason to let them be more flexible with it.

I find wizards are more OP against supernatural threats because you lack the narrative justification to compel them to hold back.  But, I think that's a different discussion from the one you're asking.

[Haru]

I wouldn't allow for a mixed spell effect. Mainly, because one of the big themes of the DFRPG, to me, is choice. When you throw a spell, you are forced to choose. Do you go for the attack, or do you need an aspect to make the next attack even more potent?

However, Taran's options are pretty good. I would like to add that "reasonable justification" might also put an aspect on the scene. I usually treat those as wildcard aspects, anyone who can justify it can use the tag on it, not only the player whose action created it. Things like placing "on fire" on the scene after a huge fire attack, or "slippery when wet" for a water attack, or anything like that. It can become a double edged sword, of course, but yay for those.

Thank you for your view on the matter, I personally just found that most of the spell attacks get ridiculous and allowing this option will prevent the whole Bazooka spell vs. mortal minion issue we see with Evocators.

He can just do a zone attack or split his shifts to hit more than one of them.

Additionally, if your wizard is specialized in combat magic and you are entering levels of refresh that get somewhat ridiculous, I like to throw out "breath weapon". The wizard is so good at combat magic, that he can cast minor attack spells for free. It doesn't have to be fireballs, any kind of spell will do. Or if you are generous, it can be used for all evocation elements the wizard already knows. That way, he won't feel compelled to throw the bazooka level spells at mooks, and he won't feel like he wasted one of his casting stress as well.