Author Topic: Killing renfields with magic  (Read 18554 times)

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2014, 06:15:59 PM »
I'm not sure how this is handled in America, but in Germany, we have a law regarding martial arts, that seems to fit this problem in its idea. It basically says, that once you reach a certain level of mastery in a martial art, you can be held accountable if you seriously hurt or even kill someone, even in self defense. The argument is, that at that point, you should have learned enough to be able to take someone out without doing too much harm. You may still be ok, if it's found that there was no other option, but it is a case of "with great power comes great responsibility".

Applying that thought to magic, you could pretty much do the same. Even a moderately powerful wizard should be able to neutralize people without killing them. In Harry's case, the self defense argument was applicable, because he was attacked by magic himself. The players case might be another where they had little to no other choice to act as they acted, and it might be enough to save their hides.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2014, 06:38:24 PM »
It's a little off-topic, but I'm curious about this "killing with magic is okay in self-defence" thing. I can't think of any instances where a mortal killed another moral directly using magic, and it was considered okay. Can anyone correct me?

Though I guess it's not that off-topic, since the severity of the Laws would inform how the Wardens make their decision if they find out.

Basically, regardless of whether or not your group applies the Lawbreaker stunt for a given infraction, if the Wardens decide the Laws have been broken, the sentence is death, except in the incredibly rare circumstance of the Doom of Damocles being imposed.

With the renfields, we would have to consider what "counts" as human. The typical renfield is mentally destroyed. Inhuman Strength is an option, but could easily be explained the way Butters suggests in Skin Game, that their natural preservation instinct is over-ridden. So, if we were to regard renfields as inhuman, what about humans who had suffered mundane brain damage? Is it okay to fireball someone who's insane?

Offline MijRai

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3219
  • "For my next trick, anvils."
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2014, 07:23:31 PM »
thats one interpretation. And may have been how JB wanted it when he started writing, but 15 books later and I think the interpretation has changed. Self defense seems ok in the later half of the series. And is fine in my games.

When is using magic to kill mortals (in self-defense) okay and goes unpunished in the later books?  And your games aren't the books, so they aren't exactly a canon source.  Also keep in mind that the game only goes up to Small Favor. 

no its not, especially with the last part of the series. Moreover if we check out the dresden wiki, merlin is given credit for writing the laws of magic, in otherwords a mortal says its bad to kill with magic.

So what. hes only one mortal wizard who is either dead or imprisoned somewhere. Mortal law is only good if you can enforce it. Also i would argue further that the entire series is from the perspective of one wizard HD. JB has said this isnt the end all be all of the truth. It certainly is how he (HD) feels about the first law, but he is biased and it may not be the truth...just how he sees it.

So it might entirely be true that a wizard who believes there is nothing wrong with killing in self defense leaves no taint or scar because he believes that he did right by defending others or himself. He may have to argue with the white council about it and he would probably lose....but mortal law is only as strong as the mortals willing to enforce it..things change.

Meanwhile because he(the wizard) doesn'tt believe he is tainted and is doing the right thing he isnt tainted and is fine. (this is also how HD defines the universe so which is true( the belief thing HD always talks about)).

its not my wizards fault Dresden has an anger management issue that he blames on the fact he killed an asshat that was going to mentally bind him for all time. 

Oh and how do you think the wardens take down the warlocks who wont come quietly to their beheading. Granted they might use their swords only but honestly that isn't the only way, and kimler certainly was killed with magic.Self defense is allowed. You just have to make sure you do your self defense in a way the council likes. In otherwords mortal law is mutable and only matters if your on the outside looking in.

There are two parts of the Laws.  The first part is the White Council's written law, allegedly scribed by the original Merlin.  The second part is the metaphysical effect of breaking the Laws, the part that makes you a crazy monster, which happens regardless of the White Council's knowledge of you or vice-versa.  Your... Idea, I suppose, that Harry just blames his anger issues on killing someone is also completely untrue.  Harry Dresden has the First Lawbreaker power.  It's in the rules, and we know how and why he did it. 

Harry broke the First Law by killing Justin, and had to deal with the taint of black magic (and still has to, decades after he committed the act, in fact).  And keep in mind, his reasons to kill Justin?  Justin had the love of his life as a hostage, and was sending demons after Harry to hunt him down.  He acted to save himself and Elaine.  He was still a Lawbreaker, still tainted. 

While yes, Harry can be an unreliable narrator, I honestly doubt the entire White Council is wrong on the Laws they've been enforcing for centuries. 

And it's been explained how the Wardens take out warlocks.  They shoot, behead, bludgeon, or otherwise kill them with weapons, not magic. They do use magic to defend themselves, weaken the enemy, and if possible hold them down to make the rest of the job easier.   

You're also completely incorrect, Kemmler was not killed with magic.  He was killed with a variety of weapons, including a flamethrower. 

Finally, yes, mortal law is mutable.  The Laws are more than that. 
Don't make me drop a turkey on you...

DV MijRai v1.2 YR 1 FR 1 BK+++ JB+ TH++ !WG CL SW BC+ RP++++ MC+++ SHMolly++;Murphy+

Offline killking72

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2014, 07:58:16 PM »
this is why there really isnt a debate as to the OP question. The renfields just dont count as human. The real debate is about if any killing of humans can be allowed.
Well the killing of a mortal with your own magic stains you no matter how you go about it. The only difference in killing a mortal is whether or not the White Council will french revolution your ass.

Offline MijRai

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3219
  • "For my next trick, anvils."
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2014, 08:09:36 PM »
Well the killing of a mortal with your own magic stains you no matter how you go about it. The only difference in killing a mortal is whether or not the White Council will french revolution your ass.

It also goes into whether or not whatever you're killing qualifies as mortal. 
Don't make me drop a turkey on you...

DV MijRai v1.2 YR 1 FR 1 BK+++ JB+ TH++ !WG CL SW BC+ RP++++ MC+++ SHMolly++;Murphy+

Offline potestas

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2014, 08:53:50 PM »
Molly thought she was doing right when she brain whammied  that guy in an effort to break his addiction.
and then harry convinced he she fucked up and she believed she did, up til lthen she was fine

Offline potestas

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2014, 09:28:42 PM »
When is using magic to kill mortals (in self-defense) okay and goes unpunished in the later books?  And your games aren't the books, so they aren't exactly a canon source.  Also keep in mind that the game only goes up to Small Favor. 

There are two parts of the Laws.  The first part is the White Council's written law, allegedly scribed by the original Merlin.  The second part is the metaphysical effect of breaking the Laws, the part that makes you a crazy monster, which happens regardless of the White Council's knowledge of you or vice-versa.  Your... Idea, I suppose, that Harry just blames his anger issues on killing someone is also completely untrue.  Harry Dresden has the First Lawbreaker power.  It's in the rules, and we know how and why he did it. 

Harry broke the First Law by killing Justin, and had to deal with the taint of black magic (and still has to, decades after he committed the act, in fact).  And keep in mind, his reasons to kill Justin?  Justin had the love of his life as a hostage, and was sending demons after Harry to hunt him down.  He acted to save himself and Elaine.  He was still a Lawbreaker, still tainted. 

While yes, Harry can be an unreliable narrator, I honestly doubt the entire White Council is wrong on the Laws they've been enforcing for centuries. 

And it's been explained how the Wardens take out warlocks.  They shoot, behead, bludgeon, or otherwise kill them with weapons, not magic. They do use magic to defend themselves, weaken the enemy, and if possible hold them down to make the rest of the job easier.   

You're also completely incorrect, Kemmler was not killed with magic.  He was killed with a variety of weapons, including a flamethrower. 

Finally, yes, mortal law is mutable.  The Laws are more than that.

I dont recall anywhere where it was said he was killed with what you just mentioned. He was taken out by wizards i assume magic. He had a horde of things serving him so i assume they brought all their resources to bear, but to make sure he was dead and stayed that way..a spell would be my guess.

many people have argued the laws are more then mortal. I just don't see any real evidence that they are. Harry thinks they are;  his enemies don't. Sometimes mortals are monsters too and they deserve the same treatment any monster gets.

I think Harry had problems before he killed Justin, I don't think it was the fact that he killed Justin. Harry is probably unstable from his upbrining and from what Justin did to him. Not the magic but the base betrayal it represented. Harry has never been in a good place. Fortunatly hes a good person. Its like Urial told him its his choice. he can choose to be a monster servant to mab or a human servant to mab. Humans are allowed almost universally the right of self defense in all ethical systems, it is considered moral to do so. Why would the laws of magic(if they are the wizards version of an ethical code) not be the same as all the other ethical systems out there. Essentillly you have a right to self defense unless your a wizard then you have to fight the mortals on their own ground with their best weapons. I dont think so. Buttttttt.

The real reason(my conjecture here) the laws are the way they are is when you violate them you strengthen the outsiders. That is reason enough to not violate the laws of magic and it is different from the "given" reason for violating the rules of magic. Somewhere along the way Merlin wrote the laws down because it was he who figured out what happened when you do. I bet prior to Merlin writing down the laws and enforcing them( and he could because his power was or is equal to that of one of the queens)(wiki) i bet people broke them whenever it suited them and it didnt do anything to them, except break down the walls between reality.Most wizards don't even know about the war with the outsiders. Wizards are human they get choice and free agency and that includes choice to use good things for bad. Execpt when wizards do it there are bigger consequences. I bet if enough wizards misuse magic things just slip in, no one notices it. Even the wizard who kills in self defense weakens the barrior. His individual act, one that he may only have had to do once in his entire life (not all live dresdens life) but its  chink. Nothing happens to the wizard he was a good person doing a good act, but using the only tool he really has in a manner that does harm to boundries. He doesnt know it he will probably never know it.

 I think merlin figured this out. I think its one of the reasons he built the prison wrote the laws, formed the council, its all a part of the war against the outsiders. And if he had to lie to make people follow it so what. The stakes are to high, at least he thought so.

You may say this is a quibble but its not, the given reason for breaking the laws of magic is it changes you into a monster more likely to get worse with each infraction. In story we have no real evidence of this. What we see is bad people using magic i n a way bad people would use it or any tool. In a self centered way theat benefits them.

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2014, 09:41:42 PM »
But that's all your own conjecture and assumptions, as you've said yourself. Most of the killing done with magic is done by non-humans, done using non-mortal magic, done to non-mortals, or it's stressed that killing with magic goes against the laws of nature and inherently changes someone.

As for Harry's enemies and bad people using magic in bad ways... Has it occurred to you that the misuse of magic could have contributed to these enemies being such horrible people?

Quite late in the series Harry and Luccio even have a pretty heavy conversation about why the Wardens police the misuse of magic - it allows them to prevent wizards becoming a threat to the world in ways mundane mortals can't handle, without getting stuck in mortal politics.

Like it or not, the Word of Jim is that breaking the Laws of Magic has an inherent corrupting effect on a person. It doesn't take away your free will or make you any less responsible for your actions, but it does change you as a person, and make you more prone to doing so again.

Offline potestas

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2014, 10:28:51 PM »
But that's all your own conjecture and assumptions, as you've said yourself. Most of the killing done with magic is done by non-humans, done using non-mortal magic, done to non-mortals, or it's stressed that killing with magic goes against the laws of nature and inherently changes someone.

As for Harry's enemies and bad people using magic in bad ways... Has it occurred to you that the misuse of magic could have contributed to these enemies being such horrible people?

Quite late in the series Harry and Luccio even have a pretty heavy conversation about why the Wardens police the misuse of magic - it allows them to prevent wizards becoming a threat to the world in ways mundane mortals can't handle, without getting stuck in mortal politics.

Like it or not, the Word of Jim is that breaking the Laws of Magic has an inherent corrupting effect on a person. It doesn't take away your free will or make you any less responsible for your actions, but it does change you as a person, and make you more prone to doing so again.

yes but my theory actually takes into account all we have learned over the last few books. Killing people over and over with a rock would change you. Become easier with time as you perfected your technique and got better at not caring. Evil acts change people whether its magic or a rock. That is my point, magic alone doesent change you, you willing to do an evil act is what changes you. WOJ aside he probably said that prior to what he has written recently and if you recall he said himself that he isnt to be trusted as he tells lies for a living(something to that effect in one of his interviews) .

WOP is killing with magic for a the right reason doesn't do a thing to you. no taint and certainly no power up. Do it for the wrong reasons and your power up wont be enough to help you against the still living morgan and his earth crunching spells of stomp you into the ground.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2014, 11:40:47 PM »
Killing in self-defense might be morally okay, but it's still against the Laws. The Laws aren't really about morals, after all.

Fortunately, the Wardens are occasionally willing to cut people slack.

Offline PirateJack

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1843
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2014, 03:34:04 AM »
WOP is killing with magic for a the right reason doesn't do a thing to you. no taint and certainly no power up. Do it for the wrong reasons and your power up wont be enough to help you against the still living morgan and his earth crunching spells of stomp you into the ground.

I'm going to have to ask for a source on this because this is directly the opposite of everything that we have been told both in the books and through WoJ. Jim has said that the White Council Laws and the Cosmic Laws don't match up exactly and that there are grey areas, but he's made it very clear that killing with magic does taint you whether you did it for the right reasons or not.

Quote from: Jim Butcher
The Laws of Magic don't necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves.

The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don't all come from people wearing grey cloaks.

And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.

Which exist.  It's finding where they start or stop existing that's the hard part.
Quote from: JoeC
"Why are you banging your head against the wall?
'cause it feels sooooo good when I stop..."

Offline potestas

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2014, 03:50:23 AM »
I'm going to have to ask for a source on this because this is directly the opposite of everything that we have been told both in the books and through WoJ. Jim has said that the White Council Laws and the Cosmic Laws don't match up exactly and that there are grey areas, but he's made it very clear that killing with magic does taint you whether you did it for the right reasons or not.
WOP (word of potestas) the guy in my game that has more power then JB, i disagree with him and some others  I presented up above why I do, using his own stories and I provided a more plausable reason why wizards need to follow the laws of magic rather then "you will become monsters" we dont have evidence of this in book only bad people we are told went ape shit becasue they over did the breaking of the rules. In other words we see bad people being executed on the say so of the council but none of the building process that is supossed to have happen. I think killing in self defense or to protect others is a moral act regardless of what you use to do it. Your millage may vary

Offline blackstaff67

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2014, 04:35:50 AM »
Terribly sorry, but using magic to kill a human being (an entity that possesses free will), regardless of a) the target's moral/ethical stance or b) the user's moral/ethical stance is wrong, period.  killing a Renfield may get you a pass as they are no longer capable of free thought and free will (but see Fine Thralls).   

Why?  Magic.  Magic is special, period.  Using it to deliberately  kill, to deprive a human of life (regardless of how debased the target is ) will merit Lawbreaker.  That's how we roll at my table, at any rate.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 04:37:25 AM by blackstaff67 »
My Purity score: 37.2.  Sad.

Offline blackstaff67

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2014, 04:39:57 AM »
WOP (word of potestas) the guy in my game that has more power then JB, i disagree with him and some others  I presented up above why I do, using his own stories and I provided a more plausable reason why wizards need to follow the laws of magic rather then "you will become monsters" we dont have evidence of this in book only bad people we are told went ape shit becasue they over did the breaking of the rules. In other words we see bad people being executed on the say so of the council but none of the building process that is supossed to have happen. I think killing in self defense or to protect others is a moral act regardless of what you use to do it. Your millage may vary
But we do have evidence.  Harry himself spoke about how power tempted him and threatened to corrode him; he spoke about the Soulgaze with Molly and seeing the black taint on her own soul, especially when she claimed not to have done anything wrong.  We have the soulgazes of the Hexenwulfen...need I go on?
My Purity score: 37.2.  Sad.

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2014, 07:32:49 AM »
Potestas, it's cool your own games have different setting rules. Mine do, too, in certain places. But in particular because this discussion is about whether or not the Wardens would regard the killing of renfields with magic as a violation of the Laws of Magic, and therefore is firmly based on what we've seen on their attitude in the books, I don't think it's really relevant whether or not the White Council is correct about the changing effects of magic on a person who mis-uses it.

After all, the Wardens were perfectly ready to execute a teenage girl for using magic to steer a guy away from drug use.