PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice

[Haru]

Hmm, that would definitely take out some of the power.  I'm not sure if I'd wholly agree on that though from what I read in YS.  I'll have to ponder whether I want to leave the duration of thaumatugy intact or convert it to evocation.  If I do leave it intact a limit on how short to go is probably a good idea.

Remember that he can still do regular wards with sponsored magic when things aren't as hectic. Sponsored magic gives you Evocation + Thaumaturgy for a theme, AND it allows you to do some parts of Thaumaturgy in the form of evocation, which is what we've come to call EvoThaum around here, because "Thaumaturgy at Evocations speed and method" is quite a mouth full. Though I won't stop you if you want to do it like full thaumaturgy in terms of duration. I think it's best if you try it like that, and if it feels too powerful, talk to the player and adjust accordingly.

That is a really cool way to build that.

Thank you.

[Sanctaphrax]

I read a while back about a simplified version of summoning that people seemed to get behind.

Is this what you're looking for?

How might something like Binder's Grey Men be done on the fly?

Using method 1, and assuming a Grey Man looks like this:

Good: Fists
Fair: Might, Guns
Average: Alertness, Endurance, Athletics

Claws [-1]
Pack Instincts [-1]

Summoning one is a 9 complexity ritual before taking into account duration or behaviour. If the grey men are mentally robotic and only good for violence, and the duration is a day, then the complexity is still 9.

So it's 9 shifts per summon, though you get a complexity discount if you summon in bulk.

Bear in mind that these are not strict rules. They're more like guidelines. If they spit out something that sounds wrong, ignore them.

[Theogony_IX]

Yep, that was the one. That looks fine for a summon, it just makes me wonder about the value of offensive summoning at evocation speed. 9 shifts to summon a relatively weak ally seems meh. 9 shifts of fire controlled gives 18 shifts of stress before defense. I doubt a monster like that would even deal 9 points of stress in a chest deep fight let alone 18.

Then again, I guess you could go with a "called shots" kind of method. Set up a bunch of maneuvers and then go for the big summon.

[Cadd]

Yep, that was the one. That looks fine for a summon, it just makes me wonder about the value of offensive summoning at evocation speed. 9 shifts to summon a relatively weak ally seems meh. 9 shifts of fire controlled gives 18 shifts of stress before defense. I doubt a monster like that would even deal 9 points of stress in a chest deep fight let alone 18.

Then again, I guess you could go with a "called shots" kind of method. Set up a bunch of maneuvers and then go for the big summon.

Sure, but if you need them for a full day why do you use evo-thaum?
If you're in such a hurry, you probably only need them for a single fight, right? Say 15 minutes tops?

Suddenly that 9-shift spell gives you five of them! (4 for the first, 2 for the second, 1 each for numbers 3 to 5)
Any further shifts would be two more goons per shift...

No quite as"meh" then, maybe?

[Theogony_IX]

Oh right, I forgot that these methods were set up with the time scale in mind already. Yeah, that's not meh at all then. Even if the men only land 1 hit each with 1 shift of effort during the entire conflict, that's 15 stress after defense rolls. Plus the distraction factor. I think he'll be able to work with that if he goes the summoner route.

[Sanctaphrax]

Extra actions are very powerful and summoning minions gives you extra actions. I wouldn't let a player use the standard thaumaturgy durations with summoning evothaum.

[Theogony_IX]

That makes sense. I suppose I could balance that if I only allowed one summon at a time (on the basis that maintaining control on the fly is too taxing to support more than one), the summon can only fulfill a single purpose (attack that one opponent), and maybe roll all other non defense roll actions at -1 [-2?] (attack, block, maneuver). How does that sound? My concern is that allowing summoning on the level of exchanges then becomes little more than an expensive yet more flavorful skill replacement spell.

I will say that the image of a demon popping into existence just long enough to punch you and then showering you in melting ectoplasmic goop is really funny though and potentially terrifying if you're the target.

[solbergb]

The way Binder works in the books, is that he can have as many summons as he wants out of combat (he summons pretty quickly) to some limit likely based on skills/focus items/etc or even more likely by high concept or other aspect, but in combat he summons one dude per exchange.

That doesn't look like Evothaum to me at all.  That looks like plain old Rituals, where he's just banging out a whatever level of shifts he can generate based on his conviction, complexity based on his skills, without fussing with circles, declarations, blah blah blah.

Just give him rituals, decent conviction, decent lore, focus items to boost both so each exchange he can pop out a dude for a scene and call it done.  You don't get tired with rituals if you don't burn power higher than your conviction.  He can always burn some mental stress and tag an aspect or something if he wants to bang out more than one guy per exchange.

[Starjammer]

For Binder, based on what we saw in Skin Game, I'd just give him an ability with a refresh cost that allows him to call up one minion per exchange and call it a day.  It's a spell he knows so well he can just toss it off with no thought, like Listens to Wind with shape-shifting.  If you must, tie it to a skill check based on Contacts or Discipline.

For Binder's goons, I'd say a -1 or -2 refresh cost would work well.  Individually they're not strong; Binder has to set them up tactically to gain the most benefit.

[Taran]

Spoilers...

[Theogony_IX]

Spoiler* In Skin Game, I really liked Binder's spotlight spell casting scene. Seeing the degree to which more modest talents, like Binder, can still exercise power is really cool. The same thing with Morty in Ghost Story.

I'll have to play with it and see how it goes. I really like Method 1 of that summoning link Sanctaphrax provided since it fits well with the descriptions in OW of demons and summoning. We'll see if the extra actions from my sorcerer's summons are too powerful. It may equalize with the amount of power of the other spell caster in the group. And then again, it may just become really annoying to have to make rolls for all those extra turns and drag combat out for days.

[narphoenix]

And then again, it may just become really annoying to have to make rolls for all those extra turns and drag combat out for days.

If it does, assume rolls of zero for all minion on attack and defense.

[Theogony_IX]

That is a good idea, thank you!

[killking72]

You probably didn't have that strong of a Denarian to be honest. Denarians can have their fallen take the stress in Debt, 1 debt for every 2 stress. I wonder, how many refresh did you give the Denarian? Did they have equal, or 1.5x the refresh of the party?

[Theogony_IX]

I put the Denarian at equal (-20) refresh in powers. Although I just read today in another thread that the Denarian write ups in OW are pretty bad. I modeled my Denarian off of Tessa in OW and added refinements to equal -20. In other words, she was a powerful wizard with inhuman toughness. Honestly though, my tactics in the fight were pretty bad. I wasn't fighting intelligently like a Denarian would.