PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice

[Theogony_IX]

Here is what I came up with.  I put all of the physical powers under the changed form.  The idea being that God manifests these powers in him, and they're not something he calls up as he needs them or just because he wants them.  The rules for how they manifest are listed below mostly unchanged from what you had and are primarily instantaneous, meaning that if someone tries to ambush him with supernatural power, the corona appears and the toughness is there to meet it.  The exception to what you had is that they are based on him following a righteous path.  (This was a character element he asked for in his back story when we first started working on his character.)  The further he strays from a righteous path, the weaker his powers become against supernatural foes.  (It fits thematically with the covenant Judaism has with God.  Follow the path and God will provide, but stray from the path and reap what you sow.)  I also swapped out Holy Touch for Guide my Hand just to add a little extra utility.  With claws and Supernatural Strength, he should be plenty good, and if he wants he can add some gauntlets, or knuckles dusters, or something for an added Weapon:1.

Question though, did you mean for this

those with <3 refresh get only su strength

to say supernatural strength, or did you mean Inhuman?

Powers:
Righteousness [-2]
Guide my Hand [-1]
Human Form [+2] (Powers only manifest against supernatural opponents to a degree in accordance with following a righteous path.  This is a glow like that around Mouse's muzzle; it can't be hidden and can't be controlled.
Against powerful supernatural beings with more than 5 refresh in powers, the player gets the full compliment of powers listed below.
Against minor supernatural beings with less than 5 refresh of powers, the player gets only Inhuman levels of power.
Against those with less than 3 refresh, the player gets only Supernatural Strength.
Against those with 1 or less refresh, the player gets only Claws.
Each of these is dropped by one step if the player has not been following a righteous path.  This effect can stack.)
   Supernatural Toughness [-4]
      Catch [+3] (Damage inflicted by mortals or damage inflicted without any supernatural assistance.)
   Supernatural Strength [-4]  (Limited to direct attacks on supernatural beings or to overcome obstacles separating you from such an enemy.)
   Claws [-1] (Same limits as strength.)

Total cost: -7

Skills:
Superb: Fists, Might
Great: Athletics, Conviction
Good: Intimidation, Endurance
Fair: Investigation, Alertness
Average: Presence, Empathy

[solbergb]

change to for your build for the humanform limit, to work in toughness and fix my typos:

Against any creature with 5 or more refresh spent on supernatural powers, full powers manifest.
Against minor supernatural beings 3 or 4 refresh of powers, only Inhuman Strength,Tough+claws
Against those with 2 refresh, the character gets only Inhuman Strength,Toughness
Against those with 0 (eg, wizard constitution) or 1 refresh, the character gets only Claws.
Refresh cost is calculated without considering bonuses similar to catch, item of power or human form.
Each of these is dropped by one step if the character has not been following a righteous path.  This effect can stack.)

Also changed "player" to "characer".  God in DFRPG doesn't care if the player is a bad person, as long as the character behaves well

Re: Guide my Hand  - my character was explicitly a wrestler who fought barehanded, so the holy touch was pretty vital to the concept.  In your case, Guide My Hand is better and, with Righteousness, should give him a fair amount of extra out of combat utility if he's got fate points and a free pass to always be present whenever supernatural mayhem goes down.  The Righteousness Desperate Hour is also one of the very few ways for a melee thug to get an area attack, even if it is only mostly useful for sweeping away minions....minions are something high shift/melee type characters have trouble dealing with quickly.

[Taran]

Have you looked at the limitation power?

[Theogony_IX]

@solbergb:  Haha!  True enough, character not player.  I like those corrections though.  I think I'll run with them.

@Taran:  What do you mean?

[Taran]

(click to show/hide)

LIMITATION [+varies]
Description: Your abilities are limited in some way.
Note: You may take this Power multiple times. The cost of this Power will vary from game to game, and if its importance changes during play it might be necessary to change its cost or compensate with Compels.
Skills Affected: None.
Effects:
Limited Powers. Attach this Power to at least one other Power that you possess. Then select a circumstance. Whenever that circumstance applies, you lose the attached Power(s).
Rebate. This Power reduces the Refresh cost of the attached Powers. The amount the cost is reduced by depends on whether the limitation is mild, moderate, severe, or extreme.

• A mild limitation reduces the cost of the attached Powers by one sixth. A limitation is mild if it makes it mildly inconvenient to use the attached Powers or if it is seriously problematic once every six sessions or so.
• A moderate limitation reduces the cost of the attached Powers by one fourth. A limitation is moderate if it makes using the attached Powers require a significant action or if it is seriously problematic in roughly half of all sessions.
• A severe limitation reduces the cost of the attached Powers by one half. A limitation is severe if it makes the attached Powers significantly less useful and reliable in almost every session.
• An extreme limitation reduces the cost of the attached Powers by three fourths. A limitation is extreme if getting to use the attached Powers is a special occasion.

GM's Discretion. Sometimes the formulas given here will give fractional Refresh costs, and sometimes it will be difficult to classify how serious a limitation is. In such cases, all final costs are determined by the GM. If a Power has drawbacks, then it cannot be attached to Limitation unless the GM approves. In some situations it may be appropriate to have Limitation not affect a Power's cost or to have it limit a Power's positive effects without affecting its negative effects.

It's kind of like the Catch but it gives you a bit more freedom to customize...and you seem to be customizing Human Form pretty heavily...

I find it a tad confusing since I haven't used it much.  Sanctaphrax could help you with it.

To be honest, I'd just use human form.  You either have  your powers or you don't.  Once you have them, it's up to you to use them wisely.  Maybe you don't need Supernatural strength is over-kill...be careful you don't accidently kill them.

It'd be good for compels as well.

In fact, all that stuff could be done with compels.

Your god doesn't think you need to be really strong here. Lose a level of Strength... *shiny Fate Point*

[Theogony_IX]

Hmm, that's interesting.  The concept probably fits better with what we're trying to do, but the mechanics of it seem a little rough considering the fractional refresh rebates.  The only real change we're making to human form though is that we're introducing stages to the powers attached to it.  Creating guidelines for Involuntary Change is inherent in the ability, but adjusting the ability payout certainly isn't  At the end of the day I could always make it an all or nothing thing based on righteousness and remove the refresh scale.  That would fit it directly into Human Form.  Or I could keep the scale but have it adjusted only in accordance with the character's righteousness and not be tied to the opponent's refresh at all.  That would make it somewhat similar to an effect a wizard faces when breaking his/her word.  I do like the idea of that second option as it creates more of a slope rather than a cliff for the character's decisions in game.  It allows for more give and take when I'm compelling his less than righteous aspects.

[Taran]

I kind of like the all or nothing way (because it's simple) and then using compels to do adjustments on the fly.  But if you and the player are o.k with keeping track of the individual powers, it would work.

The only reason I suggested limitation is because he may end up with a larger rebate...or maybe not since limitation is one the those 'judgment call' kinds of powers.

[Sanctaphrax]

Personally I'd prefer an all-or-nothing Human Form/Limitation (they're not very different), but that's more personal taste than anything.

That aside, I recommend raising Conviction to Superb. You get +1 to every skill below Conviction when using Righteousness so it pays to have it as high as possible. And it makes Guide My Hand more effective too.

[Theogony_IX]

I further simplified the build.  I still like the idea of a partial granting of powers since it fits the character he described better than an all or nothing situation, but rather than so many I dropped it to three:  full, half, none.  I also brought Conviction up, since Sanctaphrax is right about Righteousness being that much better this way.  This looks like a solid build.  Thanks for your help, all.


Powers:
Righteousness [-2]
Guide my Hand [-1]
Human Form [+2] (Powers only manifest against supernatural opponents to a degree in accordance with following a righteous path.  This is a glow like that around Mouse's muzzle; it can't be hidden and can't be controlled.)
   Supernatural Toughness [-4]
      Catch [+3] (Damage inflicted by mortals and/or damage inflicted without any supernatural assistance.)
   Supernatural Strength [-4]
   Claws [-1]
   (Powers granted are dropped by one step when the character makes a decision that strays from a righteous path.)
      1: The character gets the full compliment of powers listed below.
      2: The character gets only Inhuman levels of power and Claws.
      3: The character gets no powers.

Total cost: -7

Skills:
Superb: Fists, Conviction
Great: Athletics, Might
Good: Intimidation, Endurance
Fair: Investigation, Alertness
Average: Presence, Empathy

[Theogony_IX]

For example, the sorcerer will pretty much always be outclassed by the wizard, because he chose to basically create the same character but with less power. If he went for something like "sponsored magic: demonology", he could go for a whole different angle with his magic and do some amazing stuff with evothaum. He could even go for a bond with a demonic entity that grants him some other powers altogether, like strength, speed, etc.

I'm looking into this, and because he's new to rpg's and this game as well, I want to be able to describe how this can be amazing.  What can he do with evothaum that would be amazing?

[PirateJack]

Evothaum is one of those things that depends mostly upon the creativity of the player to be effective. If he's taken Sponsored Magic: Demonology it could lead to Binder-esque summoning sprees mid-combat. If he's taken Summer Magic he could create miniature volcanoes or sprout hedge maze labyrinths to separate and confound his enemies. If he takes Sponsored Illusions he could create the image of an angry dragon casting its gaze down upon the battlefield, intimidating everyone into submission.

Just think of anything thaumaturgy can do, but limited by the power you have on hand rather than with a long, complex ritual.

[Haru]

I'm looking into this, and because he's new to rpg's and this game as well, I want to be able to describe how this can be amazing.  What can he do with evothaum that would be amazing?

Well, evothaum is "thaumaturgy at the speed and methods of evocation". That means he can do a spell that would usually be too complicated to do with evocation. I especially like to use this for the "simple action" ("solve improbable or impossible problems" YS263) option of thaumaturgy, which basically lets you do a spell in place of using any other skill. Almost the entire chapter on Thaumaturgy can be applied to evothaum. The scope of what you can do is only limited by your imagination and what your table will accept. Well, and the number of shifts you can control in one roll.

With demonology, for example, you could hastily summon a succubus that seduces a thug, putting a rapport block on him. Depending on how you handle it, this could hold for longer than a regular evocation block (though "with evocation methods" usually means short term spells). Or summon a spirit into a car and have it crash into your opponent as an attack with drive and whatever weapon rating you might give a speeding car. Or you cast a temporary possession on yourself, increasing your strength to replace might for one roll.

There's other things as well. You could, for example, put up a ward instead of a block, that will be triggered at a certain condition. You could set up a ward as a ring of fire that will spring up, once someone is inside the warded area. You could set up a counterspell ward on the scene and it will jump into action the next time someone tries to cast a spell, having the spell turn chaotic.

He could funnel magic into a weapon and hand it over to another character who is better at swinging them around, so the other character suddenly attacks with a 10 shift weapon. It'd be sort of like a potion effect.

He won't have to go for demonology, of course, it's just the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "sorcerer". As PirateJack says, things like Binder's grey men could be done with sponsored magic. Maybe put "human form" on there as well, so he needs one action to summon the first batch of suits (which I wouldn't charge him for), and then he can use his minions to justify things like an investigation roll when he sends them out to look for him, or a fists block when they surround him as meat shields, etc.

In addition to EvoThaum, you'll get to take debt with sponsored magic. That basically means that you preaccept a compel on the theme of your sponsored magic for spending a Fate point you don't have right now. This is incredibly useful if you need an extra oomph to your spell. But taking debt with your sponsor can do a lot more than that. I've had players ask their sponsor to create a thunderstorm that would benefit them, for example. A sponsor can also absorb casting stress, if you need him to. Usually at a conversion rate of 2 points of casting stress for 1 point of debt ("The Dark Powers are always willing to help" YS289).

[Theogony_IX]

i told him about it and I do believe he is on board. 

A couple questions:
A good portion of power can be added to the spell by reducing the amount of time you want it to last on the Time Scale.  So with a Conviction of 3, and reducing the duration of a Ward from a day to a few minutes, 6 steps, you could conceivable form a 9 shift ward for only a single stress as long as you can control it.  Is that correct?

Summoning and Binding seems really complicated and requires a fairly high number of shifts.  I read a while back about a simplified version of summoning that people seemed to get behind.  How might something like Binder's Grey Men be done on the fly?

[Haru]

i told him about it and I do believe he is on board. 

Excellent!

A couple questions:
A good portion of power can be added to the spell by reducing the amount of time you want it to last on the Time Scale.  So with a Conviction of 3, and reducing the duration of a Ward from a day to a few minutes, 6 steps, you could conceivable form a 9 shift ward for only a single stress as long as you can control it.  Is that correct?

"With Evocation's speed and methods" usually means that the spells cast with EvoThaum last as long as a regular evocation would. I would probably allow a ward to last for the scene (15 minutes on the time chart), which is my default duration for such things, In a conflict, I wouldn't use the time chart to keep track of time, but exchanges, as that's what a conflict is measured in. So a spell will either last the entire scene or X exchanges, with the usual rules for prolonging spells.

Summoning and Binding seems really complicated and requires a fairly high number of shifts.  I read a while back about a simplified version of summoning that people seemed to get behind.  How might something like Binder's Grey Men be done on the fly?

Well, this is going to be something that you will get vastly different answers, depending on the peoples style of play.

I personally would not make the summoning an extra thing in a sense that I wouldn't do it like a spell. Instead, I would say that Bender can only do something with his magic, when he has his minions summoned. Look at how that is described in Skin Game, it doesn't really take him any effort.

So I would write him like this:
Human Form [+1]
 affecting:
  Sponsored Magic (grey suits) [-4]

The human form means that he can not use the power unless a condition is met. We can choose that condition as we like. For a werewolf, it would be the change from "beast change", but in Binder's case, it's simply that he needs to have some of his minions summoned. That isn't really an action. If he knows he has to fight, he can simply say that he summons them beforehand, and they are there. If he is already in a conflict, he'll need to take an action to summon them. No roll is needed for that, he just declares that's what he is doing, and that uses up his action.
When a circle shorts out his suits, he can't do anything anymore, which is very well represented by this, I think.
But like I said, your mileage my vary on this. If you'd rather have a mechanical way to summon the grey suits, we can certainly come up with something, though others might be more suited for that.

[Theogony_IX]

Excellent!

"With Evocation's speed and methods" usually means that the spells cast with EvoThaum last as long as a regular evocation would. I would probably allow a ward to last for the scene (15 minutes on the time chart), which is my default duration for such things, In a conflict, I wouldn't use the time chart to keep track of time, but exchanges, as that's what a conflict is measured in. So a spell will either last the entire scene or X exchanges, with the usual rules for prolonging spells.

]

Hmm, that would definitely take out some of the power.  I'm not sure if I'd wholly agree on that though from what I read in YS.  I'll have to ponder whether I want to leave the duration of thaumatugy intact or convert it to evocation.  If I do leave it intact a limit on how short to go is probably a good idea.

Well, this is going to be something that you will get vastly different answers, depending on the peoples style of play.

I personally would not make the summoning an extra thing in a sense that I wouldn't do it like a spell. Instead, I would say that Bender can only do something with his magic, when he has his minions summoned. Look at how that is described in Skin Game, it doesn't really take him any effort.

So I would write him like this:
Human Form [+1]
 affecting:
  Sponsored Magic (grey suits) [-4]

The human form means that he can not use the power unless a condition is met. We can choose that condition as we like. For a werewolf, it would be the change from "beast change", but in Binder's case, it's simply that he needs to have some of his minions summoned. That isn't really an action. If he knows he has to fight, he can simply say that he summons them beforehand, and they are there. If he is already in a conflict, he'll need to take an action to summon them. No roll is needed for that, he just declares that's what he is doing, and that uses up his action.
When a circle shorts out his suits, he can't do anything anymore, which is very well represented by this, I think.
But like I said, your mileage my vary on this. If you'd rather have a mechanical way to summon the grey suits, we can certainly come up with something, though others might be more suited for that.

That is a really cool way to build that.