Pickpocketing rote?

[Amelia Crane]

I am making a character to play on these very boards and I wanted to make a rote to pickpocket people.  How would you go about statting this?  My initial attempt was to make it a skill-replacement, but that is only valid through Thaumaturgy, not with Evocation, and drawing a circle around yourself seems a bit like too much attention to draw to yourself to pickpocket someone.  Further suggestions have been some form of maneuver that creates one aspect or another that results in small items changing possession.  So I was curious, how would you stat such a spell up?

[Arcane]

How about some sort of maneuver to put the aspect "Secretly Stolen" on the object (or "Robbed" on the owner)?  Tag the resulting aspect for effect to have the object instead of the original owner.

[Taran]

I think an aspect/maneuver would suffice.  The power of the maneuver would be the check to notice it getting stolen.

Granted, it seems like a bit of a cheat for a skill replacement.  Evocation is supposed to be quick and dirty and picking pockets would, to me (I don't have a lot of experience picking pockets) seems more of a finesse thing...something that's more suited to thaumaturgy.

I see an evocation being able to forcefully pull something towards you, not delicately pull something out of someone's pocket.

A maneuver to tag to give you a +2 to actually physically do the pick-pocketing would work.  Causing a distraction, for instance. 

I've seen video's of pick-pockets in crowded subways, following and bumping into victims on multiple occasions to get back-packs unzipped before they do the actual stealing.

[Arcane]

Another possibility could be a specialized form of veil that blocks the victim from noticing you're trying to lift something off of him.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd say that picking someone's pocket with a quick spell would normally just be fluff for a Deceit-based pickpocketing attempt. It's neat and a character should be able to do it, but it's not something that should be available to any random wizard regardless of their pickpocketing skill. So using normal skills with different fluff seems appropriate.

Though I suppose you could use evothaum, if you had that ability.

[Taran]

Maybe a stunt that lets you use discipline to pick-pockets.

[Jreafman]

Maybe a stunt that lets you use discipline to pick-pockets.

I had the same thought.

[Haru]

An enchanted item would allow you to store thaumaturgy spells and use them instantly. That would allow you to do an evothaum thing, which might make the whole thing easier to justify. If you want to use it more than once, just use the mental stress rule for enchanted items.

Though I think a simple maneuver should work. Just tag it for effect and the items change hands. If it isn't anything important, I wouldn't even roll. If it is important, the target can roll alertness against the maneuver strength to notice something going on.

[Tedronai]

An enchanted item would allow you to store thaumaturgy spells and use them instantly. That would allow you to do an evothaum thing, which might make the whole thing easier to justify. If you want to use it more than once, just use the mental stress rule for enchanted items.

If you're conflicted over doing this vs. keeping the narrative of using a spell, you can just fluff the item as a 'focus', possibly even going so far as to trade the 1 free use / session for a boost in the power/complexity of the stored spell.

[Amelia Crane]

Thank you all for your opinions.  I think my GM has agreed to a maneuver-based pickpocketing.

Evocation is supposed to be quick and dirty and picking pockets would, to me (I don't have a lot of experience picking pockets) seems more of a finesse thing...something that's more suited to thaumaturgy.

I see an evocation being able to forcefully pull something towards you, not delicately pull something out of someone's pocket

I don't think this conception of Evocation is quite correct.  It certainly sums up Harry's ability with Evocation, but I don't think it applies to evocation in general.  Someone like Molly would be much better at a pickpocketing evocation.

[Tedronai]

I don't think this conception of Evocation is quite correct.  It certainly sums up Harry's ability with Evocation, but I don't think it applies to evocation in general.  Someone like Molly would be much better at a pickpocketing evocation.

The game rules' limitation of the effects of evocation to the sorts of things Harry was hypothetically capable of or could conceive of others being capable of at the time the game rules were written, where we have later seen others and even Harry himself surpass those limitations is one of the many minor failings of the system.

'Correct', though, is a loaded term.

[solbergb]

I think we all agree a "pickpocket with discipline" stunt would work, skinned as magic, just as some forms of "zero stress" battle magic are skinned that way (eg, substitute discipline for athletics to dodge to simulate fast deflection spells)

If you don't want to spend precious refresh on it, thaumaturgy can clearly do the trick, but it lacks a lot of the advantages of a rote.  So a wizard with pickpocketing on his mind would only want a rote if the idea is to do it really fast, under high stress situations (such as combat).

The main concern isn't that evocation can't be subtle, it is that all it can do is block, maneuver, attack and sometimes move.

Thaum lets you "solve impossible problems", a much broaders scope, and is the source of most skill replacement stunts.

Mechanically though, taking something away from somebody is a maneuver.

Doing a maneuver without being noticed would require some kind of veil (block vs awareness) or maneuver (a distraction type aspect you would then invoke with the free tag to not notice the pickpocket).

So either you want two rotes, and two actions, or you need a rote that combines say, a veil and a maneuver with more shifts.  Given that you can probably combine an attack and a maneuver (Fuego as often portrayed in the books is something I would skin as a fire attack with 3 shifts dedicated to a "knocked back" type spirit maneuver which is then immediately invoked to toss the guy into another zone) a high enough shift rote (6 shifts maybe for two maneuvers or a maneuver+level 3 veil?) might get it done in one action. 

What do people think about combining effects via more shifts, rather than one massive effect?  Is that one of those things discussed to death or is there a consensus on that (I can see action economy balance issues, unless you also allow a high result non-magic maneuver to attempt two maneuvers at once...although again, why wouldn't you be able to do a supernatural strength punch that sacrificed some shifts of damage to put a maneuver on somebody....similar to the fuego suggestion above)?

[Taran]

Another thing to consider is pick pocketing is hard to do.  It specifically says the difficulty should be at least 2 shifts harder unless you have the appropriate stunt.  I would not let magic overcome this limitation without building those extra shifts into the spell or taking the stunt.

[Blk4ce]

What do people think about combining effects via more shifts, rather than one massive effect?  Is that one of those things discussed to death or is there a consensus on that (I can see action economy balance issues, unless you also allow a high result non-magic maneuver to attempt two maneuvers at once...although again, why wouldn't you be able to do a supernatural strength punch that sacrificed some shifts of damage to put a maneuver on somebody....similar to the fuego suggestion above)?

That... could actually work. Instead of a weapon 4 spell, you do a weapon 1 spell which inflicts a tag if it hits. That could represent spells that cause poison effects.

[Taran]

There are rules for assigning extra shifts.  If you succeed on a roll by 3+. Shifts, you can assign the extra shifts toward something else.  I don't have my book with me but I know that it has certain limitations