Author Topic: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress  (Read 26071 times)

Offline Mickey Finn

  • Encyclopedia Salesman at the Gates of Mordor --- http://tinyurl.com/Amazon-Page-for-Finn
  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 8382
  • Moderator, Thematic Consultant for Comic
    • View Profile
    • Amazon Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2014, 11:22:44 PM »
"So where's the bit where Harry sits down and meditates? "

Strangely, there is a series of stories regarding yoga and murder mysteries. The Matt Bolster series.

I am not making this up.
We are not nouns. We are VERBS. -Stephen Fry
The Universe is made of stories, not of atoms. -Muriel Rukeyser

Podcast: http://thegentlemennerds.com/

Wormwood Mysteries:
"All The Pretty Little Horses" http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W8FE3FS 
"Sign of the Times" http://tinyurl.com/DirtyMagick

Offline gojj

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2014, 02:55:28 AM »
I am not making this up.
That's exactly what someone who was making that up would say...

Offline Jreafman

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2014, 03:13:22 AM »
One thing needs to be said: That quote you picked happens well after the point where we're all saying the the break happened. Even though Jreafman clearly said where to find it (Chapter 39), you grabbed a quote from a whole chapter after that.

The part we're actually talking about:
Harry spends the entire rest of that chapter pointedly not fighting for his life. He has time for a quiet moment with Marcone where he convinces him to help him get the other Raiths out.

Mr. Death... You're my Hero. :P I was on my way out the door and didn't have time to look it up again and type out the relevant bits, thanks for grabbing that for me. :)

Offline solbergb

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 606
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2014, 01:43:25 PM »
Yeah.  The way I read that scene is physical and mental stress boxes clear while they start a social conflict.  No recovery on consequences occurs (unless you have some kind of magical recovery power, which Carlos and Harry did not) because no medicine/shoulder to cry on stuff happens, and if you take social consequences they affect the upcoming battle scene so you've got to be a bit careful in the scene where the PC's want to convince Marcone (and others) to rescue the folks they care about.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 01:46:42 PM by solbergb »

Offline Melendwyr

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2014, 06:46:23 PM »
I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict.  Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well.  Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.

Offline narphoenix

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2686
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2014, 06:54:25 PM »
I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict.  Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well.  Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.

Hm. We should examine this closer.

I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict.  Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well.  Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.

One more time.

I read that

Yes. You read that. You did. The point we've been trying to make is that there are multiple ways to read a scene. I read it (along with most people who are on here) as a track clearing break. You read it differently. We don't agree with you, but that doesn't make our argument less valid. Or yours, for that matter.
GMing:

Paranet 2250

Avatar from Scarfgirl and TheOtherChosenOne of Deviantart

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2014, 07:09:06 PM »
I read that as starting a conflict within a greater, unresolved conflict.
The duel is over. The duel was the conflict, and now it's over.

Your definition of "conflict" is not the definition of conflict the book uses to delineate the structure of a scene.

Please explain why your definition of conflict trumps the book's gameplay term.

Also, please explain why Harry is able to recover stress between the beginning and end of every book; because the start of a book creates a conflict only resolved at the end, therefore every fight scene inside the book is just another conflict within the greater, unresolved conflict.

Quote
Harry is still in personal danger, and now his friends and allies are as well.
Well, no. He clearly states that he is in a quiet spot, and there are several minutes where he is in no danger at all. If he was still in personal danger, he couldn't have that quiet chat with Marcone.

Quote
Starting a new conflict shouldn't in itself grant stress clearance.
Right, ending a conflict does. Which they did. Vittorio is a non-entity at that point, and doesn't become involved again until the very end of the scene. The duel was the game's conflict; and that conflict ended. There was a several minute pause there for Dresden to collect himself.

The text outright says he has a rest period, there is a clear case of two separate conflicts happening, with separate opponents, and he has at the least two or three minutes to collect himself and talk to people. We have demonstrated that the rest period you declared was an absolute necessity actually did happen.

I have to question at this point whether you are arguing in good faith. You seem to reject any evidence that doesn't back-up your own version or support the need for your supposed fix. Several experienced players have asked you what the cost of the fix would be, or otherwise pointed out flaws, and you don't answer their questions or respond to what they've said.

I'm also curious why you picked a quote from Chapter 40 to try and refute our assertion about the rest period, even though it was clearly pointed out as being in Chapter 39. The tone with which you presented the quote was, frankly, smug and sarcastic, which to me suggests that you thought your quote was ironclad proof. So did you think we would simply accept your quote as proof without checking the book ourselves? Or did you just not check the event we were referencing and gave a chapter reference for?

At this point, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that you don't want our opinions or suggestions so much as you want someone to agree with you. If that was going to happen, it would have by now -- so my suggestion to you is stop and consider that you might well be mistaken here.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 07:30:52 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2014, 07:13:50 PM »
May I suggest you try your house-rule as stated, with your group, and then let us know how it worked out.  You may or may not want to take Sanctaphrax's advice to balance the added bonus to evocation.

Edit:  I'm curious, actually, because that rule would influence how I selected my rotes - I would make my rotes in such a way that I would never take casting stress.  I generally don't take attack evocations as rotes, but I would if I knew it was free.  In fact I'd make at least 2 of my rotes attack rotes so that I could get off multiple attacks in a combat.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 07:25:38 PM by Taran »

Offline Melendwyr

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2014, 07:32:10 PM »
Yes. You read that. You did. The point we've been trying to make is that there are multiple ways to read a scene.

There are always multiple ways to do anything.  There aren't always multiple correct ways to do something.  Given that there is no rigorous definition of what a scene is or is not in DFRPG, we have to go by general usage and common sense.  And by those standards, it's all part of one long, multi-chapter scene.

The summoning of Cowl and the ultra-ghouls doesn't make anyone safe who was in danger before.  It puts everyone who was in danger in even more, and pretty much everyone who wasn't at risk before now is.  And if Harry hadn't been able to counter the gambit, it would have rendered the social consequences of violating the duel's terms null and void.  It doesn't matter if Vitto becomes an outcast, or exposes Outsider involvement, if the entire White Court gathered in the caverns is slaughtered.  If all the witnesses are dead, it doesn't matter what they saw.  Cowl and allies could then dominate the surviving WCVs without having to worry about resistance.

It's definitely not a concession.  You don't 'concede' a fistfight by pulling a gun and trying to shoot your opponent with it.  It's an escalation.

We don't even need to focus on this particular battle.  I picked it because it was a relatively early example of the game rules not matching the novel material.  There are plenty of later examples where what Harry can do clearly violates the limits placed on game characters.  And you can't even explain the events by attributing things to 'Sponsored Magic' with Winter, because Harry resists almost every case of the mantle's impulses towards violence and destruction.  He'd be building up a massive debt that he soon wouldn't be able to pay off.

Just acknowledge the elephant in the room, guys.  The game rules don't reflect the canonical increases of a wizard's abilities with skill.  Increasing the numerical bonuses on casting, but not increasing the amount of casting that can be done, eventually leads to a break between the setting and the rules.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2014, 08:24:38 PM »
There are always multiple ways to do anything.  There aren't always multiple correct ways to do something.  Given that there is no rigorous definition of what a scene is or is not in DFRPG, we have to go by general usage and common sense.  And by those standards, it's all part of one long, multi-chapter scene.
Let's talk about that a bit.

Nearly everyone in this thread is saying there's a break in the conflict. You are the only one insisting there isn't. If a whole bunch of people agree on something, and one person disagrees, which group is the one using general usage and common sense?

Quote
The summoning of Cowl and the ultra-ghouls doesn't make anyone safe who was in danger before.  It puts everyone who was in danger in even more, and pretty much everyone who wasn't at risk before now is.
It doesn't make anyone safer. Nobody's saying it has. What makes them safer is the Einherjar showing up and creating the quiet spot that Harry directly and explicitly references.

Quote
And if Harry hadn't been able to counter the gambit, it would have rendered the social consequences of violating the duel's terms null and void.  It doesn't matter if Vitto becomes an outcast, or exposes Outsider involvement, if the entire White Court gathered in the caverns is slaughtered.  If all the witnesses are dead, it doesn't matter what they saw.  Cowl and allies could then dominate the surviving WCVs without having to worry about resistance.
And this largely isn't relevant. Vitto has to escalate his plan and show his cards in a way he hadn't intended. It doesn't matter what would have happened if he'd succeeded because, frankly, most games aren't going to let him succeed. This is Harry Dresden's story, it's the PCs story, and the GM is, generally speaking, going to give them a challenge that they are capable of solving.

Quote
It's definitely not a concession.  You don't 'concede' a fistfight by pulling a gun and trying to shoot your opponent with it.  It's an escalation.
It's a concession because it allows Harry to bring in his back-up. It's a concession because the duel's over, Vittorio lost, and he's losing on his terms.

You are thinking of it only in terms of the physical contest, and that simply isn't the case here.

But the larger point is, at that point, Vittorio is no longer a participant. By making that move, he removes himself from the ensuing fight scene. If nothing else, the fact that Harry and Ramirez's initial opponents are no longer involved marks an end to the conflict scene.

And then Harry has a distinct, noted, and explicit five minute break.

Quote
We don't even need to focus on this particular battle.  I picked it because it was a relatively early example of the game rules not matching the novel material.  There are plenty of later examples where what Harry can do clearly violates the limits placed on game characters.  And you can't even explain the events by attributing things to 'Sponsored Magic' with Winter, because Harry resists almost every case of the mantle's impulses towards violence and destruction.  He'd be building up a massive debt that he soon wouldn't be able to pay off.
It's only an example of that after you've dismissed every attempt to explain that he does, in fact, get a break in the action, glossing it over with, "Well, I don't think he does."

Him resisting doesn't mean the influence isn't there. He is accruing debt, and he's paying it off as it comes.

Quote
Just acknowledge the elephant in the room, guys.  The game rules don't reflect the canonical increases of a wizard's abilities with skill.  Increasing the numerical bonuses on casting, but not increasing the amount of casting that can be done, eventually leads to a break between the setting and the rules.
We've given you several reasons why the rules work, and how they can work in the context of the novels. You've ignored and dismissed them.

Nobody's trying to hide anything here. Please stop acting like you're exposing some awful truth we're not acknowledging.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2014, 08:29:00 PM »
You know I think the house-rule would work.  Since Melendwyr's interpretation of a 'conflict' is clearly longer than most people's, those extra spells won't get used nearly as much.

You could have multiple scenes and conflicts running without clearing stress so you'd get less mileage out of them.

I personally, let people refresh their stress tracks a bit more often than what he suggests as, it seems, do most but that's just a matter of preference.

I ran a fight in a building that went on for a long time as they fought their way to the basement.  They fought multiple enemies pretty much non-stop.  There was a few 'quiet moments' but they were never truly out of danger.  There were enemies in other rooms and the PC's had to be careful all the time.

I think I let them refresh their stress tracks 2 or 3 times because I saw the battle as having certain milestones:  you breach the first room; you make it into the inner sanctum; you make it into the basement; you fight the BB. Melendwyr would see that as a single conflict.  It was a series of large combats/conflicts in a Massive Fight.

No elephants.  Just different interpretations.

If you want to actually talk about your house-rule, Melendwyr, you might want to acknowledge some of the advice that were directed specifically at that question:

Quote from: Sanctaphrax
Could work. You'd have to raise the Refresh cost of Evocation or drop some bonuses from it to compensate, though

I also suggested ways your house-rule could be abused.

Otherwise, people are going to realize you're arguing for arguments sake and stop trying to help...which, I imagine, has already occurred with a few people.


Offline Melendwyr

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2014, 08:37:49 PM »
I have noted your ideas about how the proposed changes could be abused or lead to unintended consequences.  I think I may run with the suggestion of creating stunts or low-level supernatural powers (with refresh costs) that extend spellcasting capability - sort of an extension to Refinement, perhaps.

In the context of the entire series, it's clear that as wizards gain in skill, they learn how to get more out of less - specifically, they make their magical energy 'go farther' by using their energy more efficiently.  Young Harry was exhausted by starting a fire with Flickum Bicus, while Adult Harry manages the same task almost effortlessly.  A truly skilled magic user - like something on the Senior Council - likely follows the same pattern but to an even greater degree.

If Refinement (or a similar power which can be taken multiple times) is supposed to represent how wizards grow in power, probably that would be the go-to solution.

I don't think that permitting more spellcasting is all that destabilizing, but my proposed houserule would make Lore even more powerful, and that would disrupt the relative balance between the magic-associated skills.  You've convinced me that isn't the way to go.

Offline wyvern

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1418
    • View Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2014, 09:56:52 PM »
It's definitely not a concession.  You don't 'concede' a fistfight by pulling a gun and trying to shoot your opponent with it.  It's an escalation.
That's a bad example.  Here's a better one: You're in a fistfight against a local gang leader for control of the gang.  You're losing... is pulling a gun a concession, here?  Well, actually, yes: you've conceded that you're not getting control of the gang, and are trying to start a different conflict where you and your buddies just wipe them out instead.  And the table might decide that, y'know, given it's a concession, it's reasonable to declare that the other guy's buddies intervene before you can get the shot off, and there's a bit of gang-vs-gang fighting while the leaders can stand back and get their breath back.

Edit: Removed a bunch of arguments because, in the time it took me to post this, other people have said them already and there's no point beating a zombie horse.

* * * * *
That all aside, I'd second the suggestion of stunts or powers to cover no-stress-cost spellcasting.  Consider powers like Breath Weapon, Claws (being able to throw out a four foot jet of fire is basically melee range, for just one example), Glamours, the various incite emotion powers (though a wizard may want to avoid those for fear of law-of-magic issues), and balance around those.

Of course, if you do that, you will also need to figure out how to deal with any munchkins you might have, who will quickly realize that they are far more effective adding an extra +2 power to their five-ish big spells than they are by adding a whole bunch of power two spells they can use for free.  Maybe start giving out refresh that must be spent on stuff that's not your main focus?  (Kinda like D&D EL6 rules, where you stop gaining raw power and start adding gestalt levels...)

Offline Mickey Finn

  • Encyclopedia Salesman at the Gates of Mordor --- http://tinyurl.com/Amazon-Page-for-Finn
  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 8382
  • Moderator, Thematic Consultant for Comic
    • View Profile
    • Amazon Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2014, 11:33:02 PM »
Please stop acting like you're ...x

This gets used a lot by various folks. On the surface, the wording looks like an innocent plea, but the way it gets used, repeatedly, suggests it is not. It's the passive aggressive version of snark. Snark is fun unless directed at another board member or a colleague of Jim's*, in which case it's not allowed.
So...please stop.


*The reason for the powers that be wanting people to be respectful to other people in Jim's field, and anything he gets associated with, is  because it can cause backlash against him, even if he has nothing to do with it, because these are his official boards. To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't, but certainly has with his peers, so the powers enforce a high dose of decency and respect not found elsewhere on the net.
We are not nouns. We are VERBS. -Stephen Fry
The Universe is made of stories, not of atoms. -Muriel Rukeyser

Podcast: http://thegentlemennerds.com/

Wormwood Mysteries:
"All The Pretty Little Horses" http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W8FE3FS 
"Sign of the Times" http://tinyurl.com/DirtyMagick

Offline Mickey Finn

  • Encyclopedia Salesman at the Gates of Mordor --- http://tinyurl.com/Amazon-Page-for-Finn
  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 8382
  • Moderator, Thematic Consultant for Comic
    • View Profile
    • Amazon Profile
Re: Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2014, 11:36:09 PM »
"In the context of the entire series, it's clear that as wizards gain in skill, they learn how to get more out of less - specifically, they make their magical energy 'go farther' by using their energy more efficiently. "
Bingo. Look at Harry's description of Luccio's abilities with fire compared to his.
We are not nouns. We are VERBS. -Stephen Fry
The Universe is made of stories, not of atoms. -Muriel Rukeyser

Podcast: http://thegentlemennerds.com/

Wormwood Mysteries:
"All The Pretty Little Horses" http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W8FE3FS 
"Sign of the Times" http://tinyurl.com/DirtyMagick