Skill Replacements?

[Haru]

The main reason I am hesitant for this kind of skill replacement (or even social social items) is that it allows the already ridiculously versatile magic users to step into the limelight even more. There is no way a Pure Mortal completely devoted to social combat can compete with a wizard with even just a few focus items if this kind of skill replacement is allowed.

Remember that the wizard is dedicating a lot of his wizardry resources to this, so he is specializing just as much as the pure mortal is. And then there's always the fact that he's using magic, so if he is trying to use it on a sidhe, for example, it's just not going to have any effect, and the pure mortal charmer is going to have a much better time dealing with them.

If it's about player characters stealing the spotlight, I think it is important to look outside of the rules and talk with each other. That starts at character creation, where people try to not create characters with overlapping specialties, and continues when things overlap to let one have the scene and the other stepping back, and later it will be the other way around.

[narphoenix]

Whoah, what's with the name calling?

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have said that. I didn't think it was super insulting because Jim has called himself that on multiple occasions.

He's not trying to permanently replace it, but I get the impression he expects the +6 rapport to last for multiple exchanges.


The main reason I am hesitant for this kind of skill replacement (or even social social items) is that it allows the already ridiculously versatile magic users to step into the limelight even more. There is no way a Pure Mortal completely devoted to social combat can compete with a wizard with even just a few focus items if this kind of skill replacement is allowed.

On one hand, you could put extra shifts into duration to manage the multi exchange skill replacement. On the other, you have a point about wizards already being ridiculously versatile.

[Taran]

@gojj

He has evothaum?  What kind?  It's relevant.  Seelie and Unseelie doesn't let you cast divination at the speed and methods of evocation.

Soul-fire might since it's about speaking in tongues and evangelizing.

Also, the act of casting a spell in a social situation might just ruin what he's trying to accomplish. 

Skill replacement is more than just mechanics, "I replace skill 'x' with Lore/Conviction".  The spell has to make sense.  What kind of magic is it?  This will also let you judge whether or not a particular sponsored magic is appropriate.

I'm going to make a list of what I think is appropriate for each skill...mostly as an exercise.

@Haru:
I don't think taking yourself out is necessary.  Although, it might depend on the spell.  IMO, that might just be adding shift/complexity for no reason.  Harry doesn't take himself out to do his tracking spell and a tracking spell is just a survival/investigation skill replacement spell.

[Haru]

@Haru:
I don't think taking yourself out is necessary.  Although, it might depend on the spell.  IMO, that might just be adding shift/complexity for no reason.  Harry doesn't take himself out to do his tracking spell and a tracking spell is just a survival/investigation skill replacement spell.

I'm talking about taking a skill replacement for a scene, which feels like a temporary power to me, so I modeled it like that. To achieve a single goal, I'd do a normal ritual.

[Taran]

Ah, o.k.  That makes sense, then.

[Taran]

Here's a WIP of what I see for the various skills.  It's not exhaustive and much is left up to specific situations and interpretation.

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Alertness:Divination; Biomancy; Air; Earth(feeling tremors)
Athletics:Biomancy; Earth; Air; (really depends what you're trying to accomplish, really)
Burglary:Divination; Worldwalking/Transportation; Ectomancy; Entropomancy; Earth; Air; etc..(really depends on what you're doing.  Whether you're gathering info about a place or trying to break in)
Contacts:Divination; Ectomancy; Diobolism;
Conviction:Psychomancy
Craftsmanship: Conjuration; Summoning/Binding (getting creatures to do the work for you)
Deceit:Illusion; Photomancy; Divination; Veils
Discipline:Psychomancy
Driving:Divination; Worldwalking/Transportation; Transformation/Biomancy
Empathy:Divination; Psychomancy
Endurance:Biomancy; Necromancy; Earth; Air; Fire (depends what you're trying to do.)
Fists:Biomancy; Divination;
Guns: Same as Fists;  Air Magic; Earth Magic (to better locate/target foes from a distance)
Intimidation:Illusions; Summoning/Diobalism/Necromancy; Biomancy;
Investigation  Divination; Summoning; Ectomancy; Psychomancy; Biomancy (depending if you're asking "entities" or physically looking)
Lore:Divination
Might:Biomancy; Earth/Fire/Air/Water

[Llayne]

Solve Improbable or Impossible problems... first you need to address what the problem is. I don't see this as "I'm socially incapable, so I want to boost my social skills" I see it as "I want to manipulate this guy into agreeing with me." The goal isn't to raise you skill so you can do what you want with it, the goal is to accomplish X by temporarily increasing/replacing your effective skill.

The Duration and Enhanced Evocation section on 265/266 says that thaumaturgic spells that inflict consequences or temporary aspects on living targets don't have a base duration of "until sunrise." They don't have an intrinsic duration, they happen and they are done. The effect they caused might last just like a normal consequence or temporary aspect.

[Taran]

Solve Improbable or Impossible problems... first you need to address what the problem is. I don't see this as "I'm socially incapable, so I want to boost my social skills" I see it as "I want to manipulate this guy into agreeing with me." The goal isn't to raise you skill so you can do what you want with it, the goal is to accomplish X by temporarily increasing/replacing your effective skill.

The Duration and Enhanced Evocation section on 265/266 says that thaumaturgic spells that inflict consequences or temporary aspects on living targets don't have a base duration of "until sunrise." They don't have an intrinsic duration, they happen and they are done. The effect they caused might last just like a normal consequence or temporary aspect.

Disclaimer: I think I'm agreeing with you, Llayne.  It makes sense to me, assuming I'm interpreting what you're saying:

"I want to manipulate this guy into agreeing with me."  is pretty broad.  It could be as short as a singular Lie or as long as an entire social combat.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want to win a social combat with a ritual, you need to put enough shifts in to it to fill all his consequences, assuming a perfect +4 roll and assuming he has a max defense.  That's how 'heart explosion' spells work.  That's, generally, how you 'take someone out' in a combat.

The improbably/impossible problem has a set Difficulty, usually.  You get one shot at it and if you don't put enough shifts in to it, the spell fails.

So, putting 5 shifts in to a skill replacement spell is not good enough to win a social conflict.  It may be good to get a single lie or compliment in.  That's it.  I wouldn't allow you to re-use the same 5 shift skill-replacement spell over and over again for an entire scene.

If your goal (or problem) is to pass off a single lie, than a 5 shift spell *might* be enough.  If your goal is to win a social conflict, you're likely to fail with 5 shifts.

[Llayne]

That's what I was thinking. Yeah, my goal was probably too broadly worded, I was simply thinking of applying an aspect in my example.

[Sanctaphrax]

On one hand, you could put extra shifts into duration to manage the multi exchange skill replacement.

Nope. A standard skill replacement ritual replaces a roll, it doesn't actually increase a skill.

For example, you could call up a demon that tells you the boiling point of mercury instead of making a Scholarship roll. But adding duration to the spell won't let you have an effectively-higher Scholarship for the whole duration. (You could create a bunch of DEMONIC KNOWLEDGE Aspects though.)

Hmm, I just thought of a way to replace a skill, at least for a little while. It's definitely a ritual though, so it'll take some time.

First, we want to slap on a power, so we need to take ourselves out: 5 shfits.
We want the skill to be at a value of 6, so let's put 6 shifts into the spell for.
Next, we need an ingredient that fits the skill. In the case of Rapport, maybe hair of a siren or a succubus would work nicely. We'll use the free tag on the aspect to power the temporary power.

So that would make it an 11 shift ritual, and you'd need parts of something that would boost your rapport. As a temporary power, we'll take "mimic ability", and use the 1 mimic point for a 6 shift rapport skill.

If you want to do this more often, just purchase the mimic ability power and call it "magical abilities". Treat the skills you use that way as magically enhanced, so they might not work all the time and may be prone to compels or working in weird ways.

I wouldn't recommend using Mimic Abilities as a precedent. But the idea of treating it a bit like a temporary Power seems sound to me. I'd probably charge 1 FP for every 2 skill points.

[Haru]

I wouldn't recommend using Mimic Abilities as a precedent. But the idea of treating it a bit like a temporary Power seems sound to me. I'd probably charge 1 FP for every 2 skill points.

I like mimic ability, but I can see where YMMV. 1 FP for every 2 skill points feels a bit expensive.

[toturi]

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have said that. I didn't think it was super insulting because Jim has called himself that on multiple occasions.

On one hand, you could put extra shifts into duration to manage the multi exchange skill replacement. On the other, you have a point about wizards already being ridiculously versatile.

As an elder used to tell me, "it is fine that Jesus did it, but you ain't Jesus, boy".

In fact, I think most people on this board are a little too quick to label someone else as "powergaming" and a little too free with using "munchkin" or "powergamer" as derogatory labels.

I think as long as the player is following the rules, he cast the spell, uses extra shifts for duration, it is fine. If he is using it in a fluid situation, even if it is social "combat", he needs to use Evocation or Evothaum to do it and take stress for it.

Nope. A standard skill replacement ritual replaces a roll, it doesn't actually increase a skill.

For example, you could call up a demon that tells you the boiling point of mercury instead of making a Scholarship roll. But adding duration to the spell won't let you have an effectively-higher Scholarship for the whole duration. (You could create a bunch of DEMONIC KNOWLEDGE Aspects though.)

May I know how you are getting this? My impression is that you can have effectively higher Scholarship for the whole duration.

[Sanctaphrax]

Skill replacement spells are usually modelled as simple actions. You cast an 8-shift spell, you can do a thing that would normally take an 8-shift skill roll. No matter how much duration you add you're still just replacing one roll.

That being said, adding a bunch of duration might let you do your thing for a long time. Which is kinda like having an effectively higher skill for that time. Like, you could use one spell to carry a boulder for eight hours. Or maybe you could have that demon give you the benefits of a high "know chemistry" roll for a week. Really depends on what you interpret as a simple action.

But if you want to really replace a skill, you'll have to use a different method of calculating costs. Haru's temporary Power suggestion sounds like a good one to me. Speaking of which...

I like mimic ability, but I can see where YMMV. 1 FP for every 2 skill points feels a bit expensive.

I mostly like it too, but using it as a guide for making other Powers is iffy. The fact that you have to actually eat someone is a pretty critical balancing element. And even standard Mimic Abilities could get broken, if someone were to collect skills and hold onto them for session after session. Once you're done with the difficult and icky eating part, 1 Refresh for an above-cap skill is just ridiculously efficient.

And yeah, it might be too much. Maybe 1 FP for every 3 skill points?

[Llayne]

I think as long as the player is following the rules, he cast the spell, uses extra shifts for duration, it is fine. If he is using it in a fluid situation, even if it is social "combat", he needs to use Evocation or Evothaum to do it and take stress for it.

Except at that point it's no longer a simple action, its an Attack, Maneuver, etc... which don't have a duration. I can see adding duration to allow you to prepare it in advance and save it for later in the scene/day, but not allow you to use X number of shifts repeatedly until the duration ends. (barring a far more expensive ritual along the lines of what Haru suggested)

[dragoonbuster]

Something we've used in our game is potions modeled after the Faerie Glamour Ointment in YS...a narrow instance of a skill trapping (in this case, a bonus to Passive Awareness but only for Faerie Glamours) would get +X where X is your potion complexity; a temporary replacement of the whole skill (which is what you've described so far) replaces the skill level with the complexity of the potion instead of adding a bonus. They usually last the length of the scene.

One way to think of this is like the potion Harry uses in Changes:

(click to show/hide)

Where he and Susan drink half the potion and "float" enough to easily scale the steep slope to check out the Red Court's warehouse in Arizona or Nevada, wherever it was--mechanically they're temporarily replacing their Athletics skill with a higher one.

So if your character wants to be a smooth talker for a scene, it'd be a full skill replacement and his Rapport skill would be rolled at whatever complexity the potion was set to for the conflict. If he wants a one-up on some Fae and wants to flawlessly converse in Elizabethan English to charm them, it'd be a bonus on top of his rapport skill, but it wouldn't help him with anything other than that one specific application.

I'd personally only allow using one such potion at a time before there was some kind of interference, so you couldn't down three and suddenly have Superb Rapport, Intimidation, and Empathy...