Skill Replacements?

[gojj]

I don't see any mention of them in YS but a quick search shows a lot of players using them.

[Sanctaphrax]

One of the standard methods of calculating thaumaturgy complexity is to think about what roll you'd need to accomplish the same result with a skill. People around here sometimes call a ritual that's closely analogous to a skill roll a "skill replacement" ritual.

Is that what you're asking about?

[Haru]

It's the colloquial term for the "Solve Improbable or Impossible Problems" option of Thaumaturgy (YS263). You basically determine what you would have to do if you were using a skill to solve the problem, and then use the ritual instead. Sometimes the skill you would use is not really possible to use, but the magic can bridge that gap, and often safe you some time in the process.

[gojj]

I should have been more clear.

One of my players wants to cast a spell that would effectively make his Rapport 6, and then use the increased rapport skill for a social attack, not sure if I should allow it or not.

[Haru]

That's not how it works, no. If it is in the middle of a conflict, he could only use evocation, anyway, so if he doesn't have evothaum, skill replacement is out of the question.

A skill replacement spell doesn't actually replace your skill, it solves a problem with magic that would have required you to use another skill.

The best solution to your problem is probably to make a maneuver spell, that somehow lets the character appear more appealing, and then tag that aspect on a subsequent rapport roll.

[gojj]

Ok, thanks. I thought a maneuver seemed more appropriate too, just wanted to see if there was some common house rule that I did not know about.

[Taran]

That's not how it works, no. If it is in the middle of a conflict, he could only use evocation, anyway, so if he doesn't have evothaum, skill replacement is out of the question.

Not totally true!

I allow social enchanted items.

But they follow the same rules as combat items:  maneuver/block/attack.

So I'd allow a Rapport 6 social attack.  It's a 1-shot item that uses charges.  It only works for 1 attack (not a whole scene).

If he wants to defend, he has to make a Rapport Block item. (which is a separate item than the attack item)

I slot items like that into the "divination" category.  You get a glimpse of what kind of counter-argument to make, or an instantaneous spark of inspiration.

I don't allow attack items with a weapon value, even though you can do that with physical combat items.  So they are all 'skill replacement' and have a weapon value of 0.  This is specifically because Divination is Thaumaturgy and thaum attacks don't have a weapon value.

[Arcane]

Not totally true!

I allow social enchanted items.

But they follow the same rules as combat items:  maneuver/block/attack.

So I'd allow a Rapport 6 social attack.  It's a 1-shot item that uses charges.  It only works for 1 attack (not a whole scene).

If he wants to defend, he has to make a Rapport Block item. (which is a separate item than the attack item)

I slot items like that into the "divination" category.  You get a glimpse of what kind of counter-argument to make, or an instantaneous spark of inspiration.

I don't allow attack items with a weapon value, even though you can do that with physical combat items.  So they are all 'skill replacement' and have a weapon value of 0.  This is specifically because Divination is Thaumaturgy and thaum attacks don't have a weapon value.

Would you ever allow social enchanted items with a Weapon rating if someone could make a good argument that it works via a principle other than divination?  Like for example waving around an enchanted badge that makes your words have more impact because it has the weight of lawful authority behind it?

[Blk4ce]

Social items?!?

I'm seeing you in whole new light, Taran.

[Taran]

Would you ever allow social enchanted items with a Weapon rating if someone could make a good argument that it works via a principle other than divination?  Like for example waving around an enchanted badge that makes your words have more impact because it has the weight of lawful authority behind it?

That sounds like a presense or intimidate skill replacement item and not a Weaponized attack.  What kind of magic would that be? 

Weaponized attacks generally need a targeting skill.  How would you target a social attack?  Rapport? How would your rapport deliver the 'damage'?  In any case, I would never allow weoponized attacks in my game

It's a slippery slope.  Skill replacement I allow.  In practice, it's worked well in a defensive capacity.  I could see a crafter owning a social combat if they have lots of slots/uses but considering the investment, I'm allowing it.  It's probably not everyone's cup of tea.

[Cadd]

Along these lines - would you consider this item legal? It's designed for a spellcaster that has lately run into a few scrapes where overt magic was inappropriate but haven't been able to dedicate the time to actually become competent in hand-to-hand combat.

Heat-seeking Ring
A ring that helps not with the force of the punch, but with landing it in the first place.
Effect: Physical attack against a single opponent in melee (i.e. same zone), weapon 0. Accuracy 5 (my base effect strength).

Open to compelling if there are strong heat sources near the target, or when the target is actually not much warmer then the ambient temperature (using this against for example a BCV would be a horrendously Bad Idea^TM)

[gojj]

My player would like me to point out that he does have evothaum, but I still don't think you can simply cast a spell to make Skill = X. This would seem to defeat the purpose for taking any skills other than Conviction, Discipline, and Lore. Anyone disagree?

[narphoenix]

My player would like me to point out that he does have evothaum, but I still don't think you can simply cast a spell to make Skill = X. This would seem to defeat the purpose for taking any skills other than Conviction, Discipline, and Lore. Anyone disagree?

Like everyone's been saying. You can do it once per spell (like cast a "I'm super charming" evothaum to make your effective Rapport +6 for a social attack), you can use spells to maneuver, but you can't permanently replace skills. If your player continues to try being a power gaming weasel, feel free to mention that you are the GM and therefore he is subject to your whims. If he doesn't like it, he can GTFO.

[Haru]

Hmm, I just thought of a way to replace a skill, at least for a little while. It's definitely a ritual though, so it'll take some time.

First, we want to slap on a power, so we need to take ourselves out: 5 shfits.
We want the skill to be at a value of 6, so let's put 6 shifts into the spell for.
Next, we need an ingredient that fits the skill. In the case of Rapport, maybe hair of a siren or a succubus would work nicely. We'll use the free tag on the aspect to power the temporary power.

So that would make it an 11 shift ritual, and you'd need parts of something that would boost your rapport. As a temporary power, we'll take "mimic ability", and use the 1 mimic point for a 6 shift rapport skill.

If you want to do this more often, just purchase the mimic ability power and call it "magical abilities". Treat the skills you use that way as magically enhanced, so they might not work all the time and may be prone to compels or working in weird ways.

[gojj]

If your player continues to try being a power gaming weasel, feel free to mention that you are the GM and therefore he is subject to your whims. If he doesn't like it, he can GTFO.

Whoah, what's with the name calling?

He's not trying to permanently replace it, but I get the impression he expects the +6 rapport to last for multiple exchanges.


The main reason I am hesitant for this kind of skill replacement (or even social social items) is that it allows the already ridiculously versatile magic users to step into the limelight even more. There is no way a Pure Mortal completely devoted to social combat can compete with a wizard with even just a few focus items if this kind of skill replacement is allowed.