How do you handle social actions during physical combat?

[ironpoet]

I'm working on a trickster character who, among other things, would probably employ a wide range of social actions in a physical combat.

Maneuvers: This is fairly straightforward, and the most obvious use of social attacks.

• "Look behind you!" (Deceit vs. Discipline/Alertness) applies the "Distracted" aspect, etc.

Blocks: Could blocks could be justified?

• "If you kill us you'll be the monster they think you are!" (Rapport vs. Conviction) applies a block against attacks from the target

Attacks: Could you actually Take Out someone socially in the middle of a conflict?

• "I'll rip your heart out!" (Intimidation vs. Conviction/Discipline) - Social attack intended to make the target flee
• "She'll never love you" (Deceit/Rapport vs. Conviction/Discipline) - Social attack intended to make the target break down in tears
• "What's the point of it all?" (Deceit/Rapport vs. Conviction/Discipline) - Social attack intended to make the target stop caring about the conflict
• "Why can't we all just get along?" (Rapport vs. Conviction/Discipline) - Social attack intended to make the target switch sides

Defense: I would say that once an attack has been made, you couldn't defend against it socially ("Not in the face!") without a stunt or two.

There's lots of examples in movies/books/etc. of protagonists talking their way out of the middle of a fight (by converting, cowing, or confusing their opponent), and I'm interested in the best way to handle those actions mechanically.

[Blk4ce]

Intimidation is a legal mental attack. The rest are subject to GM. Theoretically, it can work if the GM allows it.

[gojj]

I agree. Maneuvers would be easier to justify than an attack or block, but if the players and GM think it is acceptable then I see no reason to but a blanket ban on it.

[Hick Jr]

I don't know that I'd let you start up a dialogue mid-fistfight, but i'd certainly let you use Intimidation to maneuver or block, Deceit to feint, and Rapport/Deceit to distract. It would be on a case-by-case basis, for me.

[bobjob]

HickJr beat me to it. That's essentially how I'd handle it as well.

[Blk4ce]

I don't know that I'd let you start up a dialogue mid-fistfight, but i'd certainly let you use Intimidation to maneuver or block, Deceit to feint, and Rapport/Deceit to distract. It would be on a case-by-case basis, for me.

If there is one thing movies and anime taught me is that you can start a monologue mid-flight and still have time for tea before you land a punch.

[Sanctaphrax]

Link.

[ironpoet]

Thanks for all the replies, as well as the links.

I think we're all pretty much agreed that social maneuvers can be attempted mid-combat, with the GM being the arbiter of whether a maneuver is appropriate or not.  So you could easily make your opponent DISTRACTED or LOSING THEIR TEMPER, which could both be tagged later.

What about adding an additional threshold for social attacks and blocks?

• You can tag or invoke an appropriate aspect to be able to make specific social attacks in the middle of combat

Some examples:

• If you were fighting against a bunch of UNDERPAID MOOKS, you could invoke that aspect with a Fate Point to allow you to make and Intimidation Attack.  Against a tougher opponent, there wouldn't be an aspect to suggest that scaring them during the fight was possible.
• If you already assessed that a Valkyrie character was LOOKING FOR HER FATHER, you could spend a Fate Point to Block her sword attack with Deceit ("Wait!  I am your father!"). But the GM would rule that you could only make that Block once.

That way, you would leave the door open for some of the cool, fast social moments that happen in the middle of combat, but you don't open the door to a character taking out an undead dragon in combat via a couple of Intimidation rolls.

Thoughts?

[Blk4ce]

According to the rules, you can take down a dragon purely with Intimidation, without needing to spend FP (mental attack and all)

[ironpoet]

According to the rules, you can take down a dragon purely with Intimidation, without needing to spend FP (mental attack and all)

While I don't have the rules in front of me, my understanding is that the rules don't explicitly allow you to do this during combat.  I thought that form of mental attack was more like an interrogation scene, where you continue to apply pressure on someone over a long period of time.  So you could perhaps make an intimidation mental attack on the dragon before combat began (and hopefully avoid combat altogether), but once that dragon decided that you're worth roasting alive, you probably wouldn't have time to make a proper intimidation attack while dodging fire blasts.

Regardless, the rules are a bit vague about what social actions are or aren't possible during combat (as indicated by some of the related links that have been posted), so I'm looking for either some consistent rule interpretations or some clean house rules to suggest for our game.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'll just quote the book...

At its core, Intimidation is about putting the fear of you into someone. To manage this, you must be in a position to make a reasonable case that you actually can deliver some kind of harm or unpleasant circumstance to your target. You can achieve this with reputation, appearance, weaponry, or even with a good, scary speech. Ultimately, this is about power - defined here as your demonstrable ability to control the situation, rather than the victim's control over it. Without this context, the victim may be at an advantage (+2) when defending, or may simply be untouchable by this method of psychological attack.

Under certain conditions, Intimidation is one of the few skills able to deal direct mental stress (see "Mental Conflicts," page 217) to a target as an attack, and you can use it in both physical and social conflict situations.

So yeah. You can definitely use Intimidation for mental attacks in a fight...if your GM thinks it's appropriate.

[Taran]

Good luck. Being in a position of power against a dragon.  I'm not saying it's impossible but probably pretty rare

[Blk4ce]

Google luck. Being in a position of power against a dragon.  I'm not saying it's impossible but probably pretty rare

It's all about attitude.

[Taran]

I usually only allow intimidate to do mental damage with an appropriate invokation of an aspect, otherwise it's only social.  My reasoning is you have to know something personal about them to do damage on that level.

The other time is the 'position of power' which might be having the person tied up or surrounded or cornered or utilizing torture.

Overall, I allow maneuvered and, sometimes blocks in physical combat.  I don't often do full out attacks (except intimidate - see above) unless the physical combat is the narrative fluff for a social conflict.  (The previous post of chatting in anime)

Normal social exchanges take too long in a physical conflict.

[Haru]

I usually like to limit a conflict to one type of stress, that of the main focus of the fight. If it's a gun or fist fight, that's physical, if it's a discussion or some weird spell, that's mental, if it's some negotiation or something similar, social. I only allow actions that don't fit that type to be maneuvers to aid the main actions.

However, if you want to have a snark off in the middle of a fight, we can pause and switch to a social conflict real quick, solve that and depending on the outcome, get back to fighting, probably with a benefit for the winner of the snark off.