I am dissatisfied with 'Focused Practitioners', particularly Mortimer (spoilers)

[vultur]

Even under bog-standard canon rules, Mort's a better ectomancer than Harry. His skills might be a point or two lower since Harry's a much higher-Refresh character, but unlike Harry Mort has relevant focus bonuses.

And, if so, they're only higher in the later books. Harry is Conviction-focused, which isn't that important for thaumaturgy. His post-Storm Front stats are only Good Lore and Discipline. As of the last few books, yeah, he's probably got a Superb in at least one of those (and probably Fantastic Conviction) but that would have taken him quite a while.

If Mort has, say, Great Lore and Discipline, Ritual (ectomancy) gives him two focus item slots. If he has a +1 control +1 complexity item, he can draw one shift of power per exchange with no risk. Plus, he probably has Ghost Speaker to do some basic 'ectomancy' without even having to use a ritual (yeah, he doesn't have that in OW, but...)

So he's definitely better at ectomancy than early-books Harry.

(And it's probably even more lopsided, since a lot of the stuff Mort does might run into a "Not So Subtle..." aspect compel for Harry. He has the Spirit evocation to do veils, but until Changes, he really doesn't.)

Like I said, the rules are assuming that a focused practitioner is not just a wizard who is specialized in one field, but someone with less overall magic,

And that does seem to be the general rule in the Dresdenverse. There's one possible exception but (SG SPOILER)

(click to show/hide)

when we meet her, she's a Denarian, so that's kind of unreliable data as to what Focused Practitioners can do.

Mort is impressive, but I think a full Wizard who spent all his time and focus into ectomancy would be better.

But ultimately, if you want to create a character like the one you are looking for, you'll have to do a bit of work on tweaking things, because the focused practitioner from Your Story just isn't the same as the kind of character you have in mind.

Yeah.

Channeling doesn't technically allow it, but the real mechanical issue IMO is the Refinement pyramid. You could at least get to "+1 power, +2 control" or "+1 control, +2 complexity" before running into problems with that though. That, plus focus items, will get you pretty far.

[Melendwyr]

I've seen the suggestions for specialist mages using Sponsored Magic with abstract concepts, somewhat like the way the game handles big-N Necromancers.  But I never got the impression that Mortimer was a servant of ghostly powers, just a guy who cared.

[potestas]

Ghost story heavily implied or outright stated, that mort was actually strong enough to count as a wizard. He had simply fudged his test results in the same manner as Elaine to avoid be long pulled into the War.
 So the Mort vs Harry example would seem to be a heavily specialized wizard compared to a generic wizard. A focused practitioner vs a generic wizard might play out differently.

I just reread the book he is in no way like a wizard extremly limited. The fact of the matter is the rules for the game suck and do a lousy job representing the stuff in the book. Also harry is a sucky wizard, hes strong thats it. His ability to actually do wizard stuff also seems limited. The book makes it lok like you need to learn spells the game lets you describe you stuff as spells so escentialy  you know all spells game sucks and that is why  we have crap loads of house rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

Nope. I actually like this game's magic system a lot.

I have loads of house rules mostly because I like to tinker. There are some things I think are flawed, but obviously I like this game enough to choose it over everything else.

I've seen the suggestions for specialist mages using Sponsored Magic with abstract concepts, somewhat like the way the game handles big-N Necromancers.  But I never got the impression that Mortimer was a servant of ghostly powers, just a guy who cared.

That's what Self-Sponsored Magic is for. Mechanically identical (more or less) to Sponsored Magic, but no actual sponsor.

[Haru]

We have a lot of house rules, because the game designers actively encourage players to make up their own rules to fit their playstyle.

Nowhere in the novels does it say that you need to learn spells. Magic is you imposing your will on reality, and that's covered pretty well by the game system. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it actually does a pretty good job at covering the dresdenverse as we know it (or at least knew it up to that point).

[potestas]

We have a lot of house rules, because the game designers actively encourage players to make up their own rules to fit their playstyle.

Nowhere in the novels does it say that you need to learn spells. Magic is you imposing your will on reality, and that's covered pretty well by the game system. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it actually does a pretty good job at covering the dresdenverse as we know it (or at least knew it up to that point).

in the first book he had to work out how the heart spell was done. Dresden has maybe 4 or 5 spells. He has rarely used any thing beyond those.he Implies others can. The game system actually only has 3 spells block, attack, and maneuver.  Thats it it blows. Basically you dont have to anything else. I block him from seeing, iblock him from moving. As far as mechanics go its a bore. The rule system has stripped away all the game and left you with a couple of people debating what happened how it hapened and another other person pissed that it wasnt done his way.

[Sanctaphrax]

What are you talking about? I can't follow that last sentence at all.

As for the contention that it's boring...that's FATE. It's got little to do with the spellcasting system in particular. I can understand why you'd want a more complex system, but for me (and lots of other people) part of the appeal is that practically everything can be modelled in a few simple ways.

[PirateJack]

in the first book he had to work out how the heart spell was done. Dresden has maybe 4 or 5 spells. He has rarely used any thing beyond those.he Implies others can. The game system actually only has 3 spells block, attack, and maneuver.  Thats it it blows. Basically you dont have to anything else. I block him from seeing, iblock him from moving. As far as mechanics go its a bore. The rule system has stripped away all the game and left you with a couple of people debating what happened how it hapened and another other person pissed that it wasnt done his way.

That's the entire appeal of the FATE system for me. It's simple, quick and you only have a few differences between mêlée and magic when it comes to mechanics. Besides, RPGs are just a complicated way of letting multiple people make up a story; the mechanics are there to introduce a bit of chance into the mix so that, yes, a debate between people over what happened and how.

[Melendwyr]

Nowhere in the novels does it say that you need to learn spells. Magic is you imposing your will on reality, and that's covered pretty well by the game system. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it actually does a pretty good job at covering the dresdenverse as we know it (or at least knew it up to that point).

Overall, I'd say your last claim is true.  But on this particular issue, the rules do NOT do a good job of representing the novel's version of Dresden's world - not up to the point of Small Favor, and definitely not after that point.  There are other points where the rules also break down - such as Spirit evocation being so much more option-heavy and thus more powerful than the other elemental evocations.

[potestas]

Overall, I'd say your last claim is true.  But on this particular issue, the rules do NOT do a good job of representing the novel's version of Dresden's world - not up to the point of Small Favor, and definitely not after that point.  There are other points where the rules also break down - such as Spirit evocation being so much more option-heavy and thus more powerful than the other elemental evocations.

in all the novels hd has to understand how to do something before he can do it storm front good example

[Sanctaphrax]

Not sure what you're trying to say there, potestas.

Overall, I'd say your last claim is true.  But on this particular issue, the rules do NOT do a good job of representing the novel's version of Dresden's world - not up to the point of Small Favor, and definitely not after that point.

Sorry, on which particular issue?

Learning spells? Focused Practitioner capabilities?

There are other points where the rules also break down - such as Spirit evocation being so much more option-heavy and thus more powerful than the other elemental evocations.

I suspect that comes from a misguided attempt to emulate the novels, actually.

[Haru]

in all the novels hd has to understand how to do something before he can do it storm front good example

I believe you've got things a bit backwards here. What you are eluding to above with attack, defend and maneuver, those are not spells, those are the 3 standard actions of Fate, they count for everything you do in the game, not just spells. If a character has a high craftsmanship skill, that doesn't mean he can do everything crafty, he'd still need an aspect describing what exactly it is he can do. Or a high scholarship skill doesn't mean you know everything there is to know, it's going to have to be subject to your aspects, again. They are a big part of this, and I feel like you are totally ignoring them when it comes to this.

So just because I have thaumaturgy, doesn't mean I know everything that might be possible to do with magic. I know what is reasonable for my character to know, based on who he is and what he's done in the past. So in your Strom front example, I agree, that from a purely mechanical standpoint, Harry would be able to do the heart exploding spell. Or I should probably say "a" heart exploding spell, as there are a lot of ways to pull something like that off in the dresdenverse, as each wizard is going to do it a bit different. Regardless, it's not something Harry has ever attempted, or even thought about much. He could ask Bob and do some research, if he had to pull it off, but that's going to take a lot of time and effort, just like in the novel. And even now that he knows how to work a spell like that, he doesn't use it, because that's just not who he is.

There's a lot more to the game than just the pure numerical mechanics. I've vetoed a lot of spells, just because they didn't fit or would take way longer than just "putting up a few aspects". Like the book says, it's about the story of the spell, and that can make all the difference to how it is going to feel.

[toturi]

If a character has a high craftsmanship skill, that doesn't mean he can do everything crafty, he'd still need an aspect describing what exactly it is he can do. Or a high scholarship skill doesn't mean you know everything there is to know, it's going to have to be subject to your aspects, again. They are a big part of this, and I feel like you are totally ignoring them when it comes to this.

So just because I have thaumaturgy, doesn't mean I know everything that might be possible to do with magic. I know what is reasonable for my character to know, based on who he is and what he's done in the past.

So following this line of reasoning... just because your character has high Alertness doesn't mean he can react quickly unless he has an Aspect for it? A character with high Athletics cannot make use of that unless he has an Aspect stating he dodges bullets for a living? Or he can only use Athletics to dodge bullets but not punches?

[Haru]

So following this line of reasoning... just because your character has high Alertness doesn't mean he can react quickly unless he has an Aspect for it? A character with high Athletics cannot make use of that unless he has an Aspect stating he dodges bullets for a living? Or he can only use Athletics to dodge bullets but not punches?

Well, sort of. The thing with dodging and defense rolls is that they are (partially) passive. It's just as much about how you move around in general, as it is about actively moving away from harm. I would question a high athletics skill if the aspects don't match up, though. That doesn't mean there have to be detailed explanations, but a general sense of how good he can be. Usually, that isn't even a problem, because the character idea will bring forth both the aspects and the skills, so they will more often than not match up anyway.

But it's different when it comes to active use of a skill. You can be an elite soldier with high athletics, but that doesn't mean you can do a backflip, or navigate a laser grid with your nimble cheerleading skills. You might have another way to use the skill, but you'll describe it differently. And that's exactly my point. I don't want to prohibit people from using their skills, I want them to use their skills in a way their character would actually do.

For example, I had a player with a wizard that was specialized in plant based thaumaturgy. But when it came to creating a trap for someone, he started talking blastwaves and explosions, etc. I stopped him and reminded him of what his character is actually about, and he switched that up and it became a vine trap instead. Mechanically, it was pretty much the same, Fate doesn't have many different actions, after all, but it felt a whole lot different, once the spell was cast.

[blackstaff67]

in all the novels hd has to understand how to do something before he can do it storm front good example

I rather equate the Thaumaturgy in the game with reverse engineering something you've see done" "Okay, I don't know HOW he did it, but knowing that he DID do it and that it CAN be done is half the problem right there."  You go quickly (with Bob's help) into theory (and possibly gray and not-so-gray areas of magic) to figure things out.

Regarding emulating the books: Please keep in mind JB wasn't writing the books with the intention of having a game be based off them; he was writing to tell a story.  If the game can't perfectly emulate the books, that's fine with me; it still captures the nature and feel of the Dresdenverse.  I'm too lazy to link to it but in the "Other game systems" thread I was going to use West End's D6 system for my own home-brewed DFRPG before I ran into this particular set of rules.  Feel free to use that as well, it's free online, but be prepared to do some serious math for the magic spells (says the voice of experience).