I am dissatisfied with 'Focused Practitioners', particularly Mortimer (spoilers)

[Taran]

Not really, because specialisations require more than one element to give you more than a +2 in anything (+1 power/+2 control in Ectomancy, for instance).

You could allow sub-specialties.  Summoning (ectomancy); Binding (ectomancy); Wards (ectomancy).

Because, technically, you can do any of the types of Thaumaturgy as long as it fits 'theme'.  So, I'd allow an ectomancy to have 'wards' except those Wards are represented by Shades and ghosts that patrol an area (ward) and attack intruder(landmine/reflecting damage).

Then you can have ectomancers that are very, very good at a specific type of ectomancy.

[Sanctaphrax]

Thematic specialists can craft in their chosen field. So buying crafting specializations makes some sense for them.

But honestly, upgrading to Thaumaturgy costs only 1 Refresh and comes with a specialization. So you might as well just do it.

[toturi]

I'm not talking about trappings, I'm talking about how those trappings are used. Michael and Charity both have high craftsmanship skills. Michael is a carpenter, but he doesn't know how to work with metal, that's why Charity builds and repairs his armor. But Charity is no carpenter, so it's up to Michael to do anything related to that. Yet both of them are using craftsmanship with all its trappings. If Michael's player started to say he is now building something complicated out of metal, I would remind him of who his character can do, and he would be able to solve his problem with craftsmanship, just as he had planned, but in a carpenter way instead.

I still think it is a Compel. Michael wants to repair his armor, if the GM thinks he should do it in carpentry way, he can offer a Compel. Which Michael's player can buy off.

[Melendwyr]

I prefer to exercise the option to make people define what sorts of things they can do with skills like Craftsmanship or Performance.  If they try something outside those bounds, they get perhaps a +1 for general experience, and that's all; if you're practiced in watercolors and line drawing, you can't suddenly burst into song and expect people to be impressed.

[vultur]

Has somebody already posted Deadmanwalking's stats for Mort as of GS?

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16552.msg1772582.html#msg1772582

Personally, I'd give him Superb Discipline and Great Lore (and lower his Investigation) and make his focus item something small and portable like a ring so he can always have it. Those changes would make him quite impressive.

[Midas]

I still think it is a Compel. Michael wants to repair his armor, if the GM thinks he should do it in carpentry way, he can offer a Compel. Which Michael's player can buy off.

This is like saying that because I can hang drywall means I can install cabinets. Sure they both deal with building a house but they are very different specializations. The ability to hang drywall has absolutely no bearing on understanding how to install cabinets. They are different professions, such as carpentry and metalworking.

[solbergb]

In my opinion, skills like Craft, Perform and Scholarship should be limited by aspects, just as magic is.

You'll be better at, say,  Craft carpentry because you have "Our Savior was also a Carpenter" as an aspect, anything vaguely related to carpentry in Craft can be done but doesn't get the benefit of invoking the aspect, and it can be compelled against other uses of Craft to harvest fate points if the GM thinks you're trying to do something too far from your character background.  You can then say "no, I apprenticed under a wielder when I was 20" or "I assist my wife with the armor, I'm not in her league but I know my way around metalwork" and pay a fate point to resist the compel, and that expansion becomes part of your story.

Stunts like Doctor or Demolition Expert obviously also inform the breadth of your skill (a demo expert likely knows a bit of chemistry as part of whatever scholarship they have, even if their college degree was in romantic poetry)

[toturi]

This is like saying that because I can hang drywall means I can install cabinets. Sure they both deal with building a house but they are very different specializations. The ability to hang drywall has absolutely no bearing on understanding how to install cabinets. They are different professions, such as carpentry and metalworking.

No I am saying that because you can do it all (unless you have an Aspect or Aspects that relates to the situation) you can install cabinets. Having a high Craftsmanship without any Aspects to compel means you can do it all.

A master carpenter has an Aspect relating to carpentry and a high Craftmanship.

A master metalworker has an Aspect relating to metalworking and a high Craftmanship.

Some guy with a high Craftmanship and no related Aspects/or a more positive/less limited Aspect can do everything.

[solbergb]

Yeah.  Although it's unusual not to have something in the aspects related to your highest skills.

Eg, my Master Contractor who's about 60 and actually can do damn near anything related to maintaining or building a house might have a 4-5 craft and no aspects other than his high concept.   He'd have more trouble repairing a car than hanging drywall or installing plumbing, but he could actually probably figure it out, it'd just take longer and maybe require tools and information (eg, repair manual for that model) that he wouldn't have normally.

If the GM compelled his Master Contractor to make him unable to craft something not-house-related he'd spend a fate point and buy it off if he really wanted to repair a car, or take the fate point if he was willing to essentially say "I could, but I don't have the tools or the manual".

[Midas]

No I am saying that because you can do it all (unless you have an Aspect or Aspects that relates to the situation) you can install cabinets. Having a high Craftsmanship without any Aspects to compel means you can do it all.

This seems like a broken loop hole. No one is "able to do it all."

I would agree that given enough time, someone who is crafty could potentially figure out how to do something. However, their work would not be professional work.

So if one of my players has a high craftsmanship, and has never made/repaired armor before. I would let him make repairs, but there is no way that they would be great unless he had an aspect like "Jerryrigging Genius."

[solbergb]

I'd agree that the "fate point to buy off compel" situation would result in a jury-rigged result, or take more time than usual or something.  But for story purposes it'll work well enough, and really you should be providing an in-character reason for why you can do it (as my "I help my wife with the blacksmithing" example of Michael Carpenter buying off the compel with a fate point)  The later need to do it "right" will happen off-camera, or it'll become a running joke (like Harry's failed attempt to re-hang his steel door).

The person with high craft who did want to "do it all" would undoubtedly have some aspect that supported that (eg, I'm 2000 years old, I've studied a bit of everything...might be compelled to hint he's out of date, with option for fate point spent against the compel to indicate that he's actually kept up in that field)).   Or say, someone who wanted to speak a lot more languages than one per point of scholarship might have a "gift of tongues" aspect to invoke for effect if there's any doubt she can speak a given tongue (you make it part of your story....or you harvest a fate point to explain why this particular language is NOT one you speak)

[Haru]

A master carpenter has an Aspect relating to carpentry and a high Craftmanship.

A master metalworker has an Aspect relating to metalworking and a high Craftmanship.

Some guy with a high Craftmanship and no related Aspects/or a more positive/less limited Aspect can do everything.

That feels a bit like putting the cart before the horse. To me, the aspects come first. I describe who my character is and what he can do through his aspects. A master carpenter can do master carpentry, a master metalworker can do master metalwork. They don't need skills for it, it's what they do. Likewise a "Jack of all Trades" could do everything, but as the proverb continues, he's "master of none", so he can't just do the same things as the other two.

To me, skills don't necessarily reflect a mastered craft, they reflect a way to influence a scene. Granted, they often correlate, but they don't have to. Resources, for example can just as well mean you have a load of money to throw around, but it can just as well mean that you have learned how to get the most of what little you've got. Athletics can mean someone who moves around quickly, never stopping, or it can mean someone who has learned to move with incredible precision, so he doesn't have to move an inch more than he has to. And so forth.

So in your examples, all three of the characters can solve a situation with crafts, that's not what I'm opposing. What I am opposing is the description of how they do it. If they are described as one thing and act like another, there's a disconnect for me that simply doesn't match. It's like if there were a whole book of Harry doing accounting. It just doesn't fit who he is.

[Sanctaphrax]

But if someone loses a capability because of their character concept, they should be compensated through Compels.

[Melendwyr]

Per the rules, you get only seven permanent Aspects.  Characters are often more complex than that - and some kinds of characters have 'hidden Aspects' when it comes to certain parts of the game, like wizards with unintentional hexing.

If someone wants to establish a detail that serves as a very specific Aspect for a particular topic, I'd have no problem with them doing that.  Harry's inability to speak Latin properly early in the series would be a good example - it's not part of his core seven, but it's a very obvious disadvantage that probably gets him a FP at several points.

[narphoenix]

Per the rules, you get only seven permanent Aspects.  Characters are often more complex than that - and some kinds of characters have 'hidden Aspects' when it comes to certain parts of the game, like wizards with unintentional hexing.

If someone wants to establish a detail that serves as a very specific Aspect for a particular topic, I'd have no problem with them doing that.  Harry's inability to speak Latin properly early in the series would be a good example - it's not part of his core seven, but it's a very obvious disadvantage that probably gets him a FP at several points.

The idea is in theory sound, but in practice isn't used that often.

I'd pawn the Latin compels on his Trouble, actually. Because of his DOOM OF DAMOCLES and later the fact that he suffers from THE TEMPTATION OF POWER, he's left alienated from the rest of the Council. This would keep him from learning the language in the best way, immersion, and instead force him to rely on crappy correspondence courses.