sponsored magic

[potestas]

Does sponsored magic allow you to pull in more power then you can control and offset it by taking debt instead of backlash. How is self sponsored debt paid off then since their isnt anyone to compel you.

[Haru]

You can use sponsor debt for pretty much anything, including backlash. Usually, you'll take 1 point of debt for 2 shifts, just like Fate points, but depending on your group, 1 point of debt could offset the entire backlash as well.

As for self sponsored, I've always seen this as an "if all you have is a hammer" sort of situation. Self sponsored doesn't really mean you are lending yourself power, it's just a mechanical way to describe someone who is very specialized in one area of magic. Try to look a bit closer at how some of your friends might approach the same problem from different angles, depending on what kind of job they are doing, and you'll know what I mean.

So paying off debt in that regard would mean that you are set in your ways. Sponsored pyromancy would make you volatile, prone to aggression, burn now ask questions later, that kind of stuff. Even if a calm or secure approach, or even a retreat might be a far better option. But because you are so set in your ways with your highly specialized magic, the way you use it is just the natural way to solve problems.

So if you are self sponsored in wards, you'll always be prone to taking the safe route, turtle up and wait first, and not act unless you are absolutely have to.
Self sponsored crafting will make you need to channel your magic through a well prepared item and fail when you have to use raw magic.

All in all, it's a more powerful version of the "Blind Spot" Box (YS179) to me.

[Sanctaphrax]

The standard use of sponsor debt to invoke an Aspect absorbs backlash pretty well. Also boosts your roll.

As for self-sponsored debt, it's discharged through ordinary Compels. Obviously a GM is welcome to use Haru's approach if it's appropriate to the character, but the rules don't require it.

[potestas]

does anyone not think this is extremely OP especially the self sponsored variety

[Taran]

I'm not a huge fan of self-sponsored magic.  I don't think it's OP, though.   Although, with any homebrew power you have to watch out.  Convenient evothaum and a questionably powered "extra benefit" can make it OP.

I don't find Sponsored magic OP, overall.

[Haru]

In what way? It's not like you can just take 1000 points of sponsor debt, even if it is to yourself. That's still going to have to be agreed upon by the whole table.

[Exkramental]

eeerrr  debt? is that in the book 

[Locnil]

eeerrr  debt? is that in the book 

Yes, in the sponsored magic section. Basically you gain the benefit of spending a fate point, but instead of actually spending one you gain a point of debt per fate point. Then at some future point, your debt will be compelled. Accepting the compel means you lose that debt, and do not gain any other benefit. Refusing a compel costs a fate point, like usual - but the debt remains, even after you pay the fate point.

[gojj]

Hope you don't mind if I piggybag and ask my own question.

I feel very strongly that complexity and control bonuses meant for Ritual/Thaumaturgy spells should not be applied to evothaum spells. While the book's blurb on evothaum is far from comprehensive, this bit from YS 288

(click to show/hide)

getting a broad range of effects out of evocation is an exercise in creative rationalization. What the power source is offering in this specific case, then, is a broadening of what you don’t have to rationalize. It’s just quickly, easily available to your spellcaster.

seems to heavily imply that evothaum is not meant to impart any meaningful mechanical benefits, rather it just allows the caster greater freedom in how he or she describes the spells they cast. Allowing complexity and control bonuses meant for Ritual/Thaumaturgy spells count for your typical Evocation spells essentially triples their worth.

Example: +1 complexity (Ritual), +1 Control (Ritual), +1 Offensive Power (Channeling), +1 Offensive Control (Channeling), +1 Defensive Power (Channeling), and +1 Defensive Control (Channeling) (a total of 3 refresh worth of refinements) can all be substituted for +1 complexity (Ritual) and +1 Control (Ritual) (one refresh worth of refinements).

This adds way to much power to Sponsored Magic, which already benefits from the "Extra Benefit" and ability to take on sponsor debt. Agree or disagree?

[Blk4ce]

You should probably also ask and about specialisations, where the cost isn't different (there's no offensive, defensive in specialisations).

[gojj]

Ah yes, sorry if this wasn't clear, I am mainly focused on focus items. Specializations require Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy, I think they should still follow the general of Evocations use evocation bonuses and Thaumaturgy uses thaumaturgy bonuses, regardless of the flavor behind them.

[Sanctaphrax]

Mostly disagree.

Evothaum attacks don't hit nearly as hard as evocation attacks, so you'll still want evocation specializations for hitting people. Maybe also for some other types of evocation, depending on your GM. Plus thaumaturgy specializations are normally kinda weak, so I'm not too worried about them getting a bit of extra power.

As for the sidebar, I think it's misleading. No matter how much you rationalize, thaumaturgy does a lot of things that evocation just doesn't.

[Hick Jr]

Hope you don't mind if I piggybag and ask my own question.

I feel very strongly that complexity and control bonuses meant for Ritual/Thaumaturgy spells should not be applied to evothaum spells. While the book's blurb on evothaum is far from comprehensive, this bit from YS 288

(click to show/hide)

getting a broad range of effects out of evocation is an exercise in creative rationalization. What the power source is offering in this specific case, then, is a broadening of what you don’t have to rationalize. It’s just quickly, easily available to your spellcaster.

seems to heavily imply that evothaum is not meant to impart any meaningful mechanical benefits, rather it just allows the caster greater freedom in how he or she describes the spells they cast. Allowing complexity and control bonuses meant for Ritual/Thaumaturgy spells count for your typical Evocation spells essentially triples their worth.

Example: +1 complexity (Ritual), +1 Control (Ritual), +1 Offensive Power (Channeling), +1 Offensive Control (Channeling), +1 Defensive Power (Channeling), and +1 Defensive Control (Channeling) (a total of 3 refresh worth of refinements) can all be substituted for +1 complexity (Ritual) and +1 Control (Ritual) (one refresh worth of refinements).

This adds way to much power to Sponsored Magic, which already benefits from the "Extra Benefit" and ability to take on sponsor debt. Agree or disagree?

Being able to use your Thaumaturgy control/power bonuses for Evocation is pretty explicitly a 1 Refresh power (Kemmlerian Necromancy), and The phrase "thaumaturgy at Evocation's speed and methods" seems firmly support that this is one way to use Evothaum.

Also, evothaum pretty explicitly allows Thaumaturgy-only effects (wards, summonings, mental attacks but that's a GM-by-GM thing) to be cast as Evocations. So while it does let you be more creative with your descriptions, it provides a mechanical effect as well.

[Blk4ce]

Actually, the extra benefit for Kemlerian is the free refinement on Necromancy.

[Locnil]

Yeah, I saw that bonus to both evocation and necromancy thing being more of an consolatory prize for needing both Evocation and Thaumaturgy, making a straightforward sponsored magic less than optimal.