An idea to allow more spell casting

[Mr. Death]

I'm not sure of that, actually. If it were that simple, Eb wouldn't have had any difficulty killing Lord Raith.

It worked in at least one case (SG spoilers)

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the Genoskwa

but that's described quite differently than what Lord Raith has. I think LR's might be broader.

I'd refer you to the scene where Harry uses magic to whack Lord Raith in the face with a set of keys, but Belial beat me to it.

[PirateJack]

Don't forget Harry's Ventas Servitas enhanced attack on the Loup Garou with his mother's silver pentacle. Anything that can act as a propellant works great for indirect attacks, so force effect spells should be perfect for the job.

[Taran]

Don't forget Harry's Ventas Servitas enhanced attack on the Loup Garou with his mother's silver pentacle. Anything that can act as a propellant works great for indirect attacks, so force effect spells should be perfect for the job.

He used inherited silver.  That's its Catch.

[PirateJack]

He used inherited silver.  That's its Catch.

True, but just hitting it with a pentacle isn't going to do much to a wolf-thing the size of a horse. It worked as well as it did because it satisfied the Loup Garou's Catch and had the force necessary to make it count.

[vultur]

Ah, OK, I had forgotten the keys thing.

It just seems wrong to me that Eb couldn't kill him if it was that simple. Surely there was SOME time when Eb could find out where he was. And direct Thaumaturgy on LR wouldn't necessarily be required, Eb could probably use Nevernever Ways to get nearby and then show up in person and knock a building/hill/etc onto him with force evocations.

[Locnil]

Ah, OK, I had forgotten the keys thing.

It just seems wrong to me that Eb couldn't kill him if it was that simple. Surely there was SOME time when Eb could find out where he was. And direct Thaumaturgy on LR wouldn't necessarily be required, Eb could probably use Nevernever Ways to get nearby and then show up in person and knock a building/hill/etc onto him with force evocations.

Yeah, this is what keeps bugging me about it all.

[bobjob]

It's possible Eb was trying to avoid collateral damage on a Tunguska or Casaverde type scale or hadn't worked out the limitations of Lord Raith's magical defenses. Also possible that because it was a "personal reason" for wanting to take out LR, those in the know about his position might not back him up when the inevitable war started.

Based on the whole, "using magic to throw a normal object", Eb could have totally destroyed Lord Raith. There has to be something else to account for that we just don't know yet.

[Sanctaphrax]

Maybe it just didn't work out. History doesn't always follow the expected path.

[Mr. Death]

Possibly those other methods would've made it clear just who did it. If a White Council member assassinated the ruling head of another supernatural nation, there'd be war.

It's possible Eb was trying to avoid collateral damage on a Tunguska or Casaverde type scale or hadn't worked out the limitations of Lord Raith's magical defenses.

Probably the latter. Harry mentions more than a few times that wizards, especially older ones, have trouble thinking outside the box and assuming that magic is the be-all, end-all. Ergo, if Ebenezer threw his best curse at Lord Raith to make his head explode and it didn't work -- and, more importantly, he didn't know exactly why it didn't work -- he might well conclude that he's untouchable.

It's kind of like how a few villains think Harry's done for once they take away his foci -- and then he shoves the .357 in their face.

[PirateJack]

Maybe it just didn't work out. History doesn't always follow the expected path.

This. Lord Raith has survived for centuries at the very least. Presumably this is because he has gotten very good at not dying. Remember that he was the leader of some of the most cunning creatures on the planet and was noted as being incredibly powerful. The Godfather's Kiss of Death is even credited as being inspired by him in the series. He's the White Court equivalent of the Merlin, with all of the power that implies.

Plus, we've only ever seen him when he had been prevented from feeding for 30 years. Given that Lara was able to survive having most of her body roasted/blasted off by a bunch of anti-personnel mines, I wouldn't put it past Lord Raith in his prime to be able to survive most indirect means of assassination. It's highly possible that Ebenezar tried and he just shrugged it off without realising that he couldn't feed any more.

[vultur]

Possibly those other methods would've made it clear just who did it. If a White Council member assassinated the ruling head of another supernatural nation, there'd be war.

Which kind of raises an interesting question. There's no White Court equivalent of the Lords of Outer Night or the Black Court Elders. Now, they can be extremely powerful by controlling mortals. But back 2000 years ago before mortal technology amounted for much (they've got to be older than that since they speak Etruscan), before the Accords... what kept them around? A relatively small number of Wardens could have defeated them handily, since pre-mortal-tech, they lack any ranged attacks to compete with what wizards have. They're strong and fast and good at healing... but wizards could burn them down from a distance.

Pre-death-curse Lord Raith might have had an instant-death-touch, but he still had to touch you... which doesn't amount to much because something that strong could kill easily if it got to touching range anyway. And armor or even skin-covering robes would probably protect you from it. It doesn't really compete with the paralyzing will attacks of the Lords of Outer Night, which can be used at a distance... and there were 13 Lords of Outer Night and the Red King, and only one Lord Raith.

Lara's likely at the upper end of White Court power except for pre-death-curse Lord Raith, and while she has impressive physical abilities, they're not THAT awesome. Just knowing exactly where to put his feet (Demonreach intellectus) lets pre-WK Harry keep up with her, so I can't imagine her being much more than double human speed.

The White Court simply can't compete with high-end magic users. Against something like Eb's super death magic and force effects or Harry's massive fire attacks or pre-bodyswap Luccio's laser fire attacks...

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, avoiding direct confrontation is kind of their thing. So I expect they avoided direct confrontation.

[Mr. Death]

You're coming at it from the wrong direction, Vultur. The Wardens could easily wipe out the White Court now...in direct conflict. Most of the supernatural nations can, because the White Court doesn't do direct conflict very well. They thrive by latching onto those in power.

Now, who from history do we know about who had a lot of power and, incidentally, were centered in the area that once spoke Etruscan?

[PirateJack]

Pre-death-curse Lord Raith might have had an instant-death-touch, but he still had to touch you... which doesn't amount to much because something that strong could kill easily if it got to touching range anyway. And armor or even skin-covering robes would probably protect you from it. It doesn't really compete with the paralyzing will attacks of the Lords of Outer Night, which can be used at a distance... and there were 13 Lords of Outer Night and the Red King, and only one Lord Raith.

You're forgetting the other powers he has. According to Thomas he was fast/strong to break peoples' necks with a single strike and could induce lust enough to overwhelm most womens' minds with little problem. So yeah, armour or robes could protect you from his Touch of Death, but could it stop him from ripping your head off your shoulders or shattering said armour into shrapnel?

Lara's likely at the upper end of White Court power except for pre-death-curse Lord Raith, and while she has impressive physical abilities, they're not THAT awesome. Just knowing exactly where to put his feet (Demonreach intellectus) lets pre-WK Harry keep up with her, so I can't imagine her being much more than double human speed.

She's fast, she's strong and she's very good with a gun. That is in no way what makes Lara Raith dangerous.

The White Court simply can't compete with high-end magic users. Against something like Eb's super death magic and force effects or Harry's massive fire attacks or pre-bodyswap Luccio's laser fire attacks...

Stand up fights are not the White Court's strong point. I seem to recall it being mentioned in White Night that any conflict that results in a fight is considered a conflict lost by the rest of the Court. They're the manipulators and mind benders of the setting, not the fighters. Look to the Black Court pre-Stoker for that.

[vultur]

You're coming at it from the wrong direction, Vultur. The Wardens could easily wipe out the White Court now...in direct conflict. Most of the supernatural nations can, because the White Court doesn't do direct conflict very well. They thrive by latching onto those in power.

Now, who from history do we know about who had a lot of power and, incidentally, were centered in the area that once spoke Etruscan?

Well, sure, but most supernaturals know exactly what they are, and many of them are likely immune to manipulation, Sure, they can control mortals, but that was a lot less powerful in pre-tech days. Also, the Roman Empire is one thing, but for a lot of the Middle Ages things were pretty decentralized (outside of say China/Mongol Empire anyway). In the present day controlling a couple of leaders gives you access to a huge amount of power. In 600 AD not so much... especially if their power base was European/Mediterranean.

You're forgetting the other powers he has. According to Thomas he was fast/strong to break peoples' necks with a single strike and could induce lust enough to overwhelm most womens' minds with little problem. So yeah, armour or robes could protect you from his Touch of Death, but could it stop him from ripping your head off your shoulders or shattering said armour into shrapnel?

Sure. But any mook Black Court Vampire can do that. Incredible super-strength is really common in the Dresdenverse. I'm just saying that his super-special power actually isn't all that impressive, since being able to kill a regular human in one blow is pretty much de rigueur for the higher end physical-capability supernaturals. (And I'm not sure it would work on the more magical or inhuman beings.)

Stand up fights are not the White Court's strong point. I seem to recall it being mentioned in White Night that any conflict that results in a fight is considered a conflict lost by the rest of the Court. They're the manipulators and mind benders of the setting, not the fighters. Look to the Black Court pre-Stoker for that.

Yeah, all that is true. But -- before they could get access to modern weaponry -- what would protect them from someone (Black Court, Red Court, White Council...) simply kicking in the door at a big White Court meeting and wiping out most of the leadership. The uberghouls were pretty effective at that in WN, and I think a fairly small strike force of Wardens or powerful Black Court vampires could accomplish pretty much the same thing. So how have they lasted so long?