Magical Mechanics (& advancement)

[prophet224]

Or maybe I should have just said "Mechanics of Magic"

So how do ya'll think the DF-Fate magic will be working?  I know we have skills and stunts to play with.  Anyone have a theory on how this might be built?  It seems to me that for someone like Harry, most of his skills and stunts would have to be magic-oriented, but at the same time, he is SO attentive and smart.  How many times has he noticed something and put together the various impacts of a new piece of information before the police even realize it's there? Anyway, I'm just saying I'm concerned about whether we can have a rounded magic-user in the current setup.  Thoughts?

On another note, the SotC SRD doesn't really encourage skill advancement (and I can see why), but we definately see Harry getting better at certain things over time.  Heck, he talks about it to himself repeatedly.  I don't have the books here to provide examples, but I didn't feel like those were new aspects, but rather skills he had improved at.  Do we think we'll still see the skill tree in it's current form?  For that matter, are there any thoughts about abbreviated character creation rounds?  Instead of doing 5, for instance, perhaps doing 3?  The characters would then start off at a lower <cough> level. There would be a bit more room for growth and development in-game.  I think these are thoughts with some weight based on the SotC 'one-shot' intent vs. the DF probably being more ongoing.

Another post with thoughts and questions on 'monsters' up next.

[iago]

We will be directly addressing advancement, but it's not nailed down yet.

Similar things could be said about magic.  Definitely the hardest rules-wise part of all of this.

[Kristine]

My 2 cents

I would like to see advancement and start off at a lower level.  Maybe start off with 3-4 aspects...

Most characters will have ten aspects. That can be a significant amount for the GM to keep track of, as the aspects of important people and places should get used frequently to add the appropriate flavor to the game.

  From: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12619.phtml

and allow the purchase of more for 5 fate chips, more or less, at the end of each game? (just a suggestion) or after every full game scenario is complete allow the addition of one more.  Maybe this could be an option for 'epic' play?  for established groups that are not playing a pick up game, but that plan on doing a long haul development?

Just a thought.

Just a thought

[calatorre]

I suppose everyone has their idea of the perfect RPG system and creating a system that appeals to the majority of the Dresden files fans can not be easy. The majority of my role playing background is based in Dungeons & Dragons and Rifts. So obviously I’ve lived a lot of my RPG life with heavier rule sets.

With heavier rule sets there are a lot of problems: if anyone can show me a rules heavy game that doesn’t bog down game play and doesn’t make a battle take hours I’ll sell every other RPG book I own.  Game balance becomes a larger issue. A lot of times with heavier rule sets combat and equipment become the focus of game play. Those are just a few off the top of my head.

I agree with chris_moore when he says he wants the RPG to help him create his own Dresden Files novel. I want a system that’s going to let me run an amazing game that makes my players feel like they’re the main characters in their own novel. I want a game that encourages character growth; I have the same concerns prophet224 has; I want to make sure that as my story line progresses my players keep invested in their characters which for them is a combination of on going story line and a sense of character advancement.

I guess I can sum up what I want from DFRPG in the following: As much rules/crunch as a game can give me and my players while telling me what I can do and Nothing I can’t do.
 

[DDR]

I have spent the last few days reading through the SoC rule book.  I think this system is a good fit to the Dresden World.  It is also a good fit to my style of GM'ing where the story is more important than the rules.  Most of my playing and GM'ing has been done with Champions.  I like the flexability, but things do bog down in rules. 

I tend to start first time role players off on Tunnels and Trolls because it is fast to learn, fast to set up a character, and easy to run.  But I may have to try SoC with some newer role players to see how that goes.

Magic rules and character advancement seem to be the major issues to work out in a Dresden game.  I agree that I my group would have more fun starting the characters off as late teens with limited control and building up to more serious stuff.  Kind of like we have seen Billy grow up through the series.  Although I'm fairly sure that not all my players would want to be Wizzards.  One of them goes for really screwed up characters and would go for something like a Susan character.  One likes ugly semi-bricks with unusual powers.  I can see him going for something like a were-crane.

I think the system's lack of hard and fast numbers is plus to working out unusual stuff.

Devin

[finarvyn]

Magic rules and character advancement seem to be the major issues to work out in a Dresden game.

Yep. It's the magic rules that will make or break the DFRPG, which is why it's so important to get it right. We know that FATE works, but it's the magic system that will need exhaustive playtest.

Character advancement is always a function of where the character begins. If the intent is to start out experienced wizards, aged vampires, or whatever, then advancement is a secondary issue because the characters have already reached some level of apex.

On the other hand, if the intent is to start with novice-level characters then advancement is crititcal to the game. Your example of Billy the Were is a great one, because as the books continue we see an evolution of his character from a lost youth into a competent combatant. Molly Carpenter shows us another case of a character starting out confused by the magical world around her, and (we assume) slowly building into a qualified wizard. If rules for this sort of progression aren't carefully balanced, the game sort of crumbles with time.

I think the system's lack of hard and fast numbers is plus to working out unusual stuff.

It should be an advantage, as long as there are no clear ways to "break" the system. Based on my SOTC games, FATE3 would seem to be ready for the challenge.

[Aerhen]

personally i like the idea of a pyramid system for advancement of magical skills... because so far as i have seen most of the competant wizards that have been around have knowledge of other magical areas, but they dont necessarily have enormous skill in them...  so it prevents the over balanced character who wants to do nothing but specialize.

and this system provides well for a apprenticeship approach where you buy aspects initially in the mentor and magical skills.. and as u progress as a mage you switch out aspects from the teacher to the student representing his increase in skills and his relying less on his master and more on himself.

this can also be represented by switching out of specialized items given to the student to aid in his learning and replacing them with the requisite skill..  no power is sacrificed in the character.. but it is merely relocated..

there is tremendous potential everywhere you look..

[The Last Bean]

I definitely liked the "slowing people down" aspect of the pyramid system, but I ran into quite a few players who couldn't wrap their heads around balancing their pyramids. It really detracted from the game experience for them, and they started wishing they could "just level their character up like in DnD"... which scared me silly cause I hate DnD. I came up with a nice alternative that creates almost the same mechanic, but also makes room for *slightly* more specialized characters that don't have quite as wide a base. In a single sentence: "You must wait a number of phases equal to a skill's level before you may raise that skill again, and you may not raise a skill more than once in the same phase"

This means that you can relatively quickly raise your skills to "good", taking the same skill two phases in a row, but after that, you must wait at least a phase before raising it higher, (so your character could achieve a "great" on their 4th phase) and two phases after that, and so on. End result: nothing above a "great" at the start of a typical 5-phase character creation, and only a couple skills that the character has been practicing their entire life qualify. More importantly to my problem, the advancement of a given skill is no longer inherently tied to the levels of all the other skills, resulting in significantly less "bookkeeping" when it comes time to advance a character. I do miss the "how does basketweaving help my swordplay" explanation, but my players seem to enjoy it quite a bit more.

As far as staying true to the system, in my experience the skill-lists that result are almost always pyramids or lower tiered "mesas" anyways, but every now and then you get a fairly specialized character with only 6 or 7 skills that are all in the good/great area. A classic specialist who has their own unique gameplay challenges to deal with, which I think actually adds to the game by allowing characters with relatively broad/narrow skillsets to exist, and creating less "overlap" between character's skills so that each player feels like they're more unique.

This was kinda based off the idea that when you first start learning a skill in real life, you make progress quickly because there is so much to learn, and just getting all the basics down will significantly improve your results in that area. But as you become more proficient, raising yourself above that level takes more time and dedication, teachers become harder to find, and a lot of time you have to start inventing your own methods or techniques, resulting in longer time between discrete improvements.

Thoughts as to how this would work for a magic advancement system?

[Aerhen]

the way i explained the pyramid to my players was as follows... 

in order for a pyramid to be legitimate, you have to have at least one more skill in a supporting level to be balanced.. so if you wanted 1 level three skill you need 2 level two skills.. and in order to have 2 level 2 skills you needed 3 level 1... 

so if you waanted another level 2 skill.. you must first gain another level 1 skill...   what this really means is that you may never have the same number of skills as there are in the supporting level.. 

is this a good explanation??

[Kristine]

also as this is a more free form and subjective system I think it would behove the GM to say that you can't have a skill unless you have taken the time (power, magic...ect) to use it.  You can't buy a skill your character has not at least tried once and failed.

It would be nice if a game system wasn't all about piling up skills, feats and stats but was more about developing the quirks and uniqueness of the characters.

[The Last Bean]

is this a good explanation??

I'd say so. The nice thing about the pyramid is that it can be explained in about three sentences. The problem players had was actually the paperwork involved in doing the advancement. Like when they want to move something on the bottom tier up, but they can't because they need THREE skill points to raise it and two other things and then they have to wait two weeks to advance anything, and some people never got the hang of balancing things.

Definitely a good suggestion, Kristine. I've generally said that you can't buy up a skill you don't use, but the "tried once and failed" rule is a good one. Gives them a definite point at which they can think 'I'm allowed to improve this now'.

[Visitor]

The pyramid is a good basis.

The way you've described using it is best for when all you do is learn the spell, but you don't gain ranks/level/skill for that particular spell. You then use some stat elsewhere for the character to determine how good you are with it. This is basically how D&D does it, with the other stat being the character's level.

If you allow the character to gain ability for a spell, then it would be better to take the pyramid and turn it onto its edge. This works by requiring that you to have a lower level spell with its rank greater than a the rank of a spell that you have at the next higher level.

For example, if you have a first level spell with rank 4, then you could have a second level spell with, at most , rank 3.

Note that each spell can only be used once for a spell a the next higher level.

Continuing the previous example, and assuming the character only had the listed two spells, before you could gain another second level spell at rank 1, you would first have to have another first level spell with at least a rank of 2.

To look at this another way, from the 'top-down':
If you want your character to have 2 third level spells at rank 2, each, you will need at least:
* 2 second level spells at rank 3, each
* 2 first level spells at rank 4, each

Having your magical mechanics work this way forces the characters to be very good at the basic spells, while not so good with the more advanced, powerful spells.

[Aerhen]

the way i see that they might be doing the magic effects in this.. is not necessarily based on the pyramid system.

It looks like they are leaning to stunts.. and if you look at the way they are doing stunts in SotC the more powerful a stunt is, it has specific requirements before they can be taken.  so the more powerful spells would require more pre requisites...

until i actual see the spell and magic system however.. i can only speculate based on what they have discussed here

[Aerhen]

to further clarify, they are differentiating between skill and power.  The more skill u have in something, the more flexiblity u have in the way the effect resolves.  The more skill, the more potential shifts u can use to modify the effect, the duration of the effect, or the time in which it takes to accomplish the result.

With using stunts, u can have less skill but be more powerful in what your magic can do..  Harry is an excellent example of someone who has lots of stunts, and stunts which have powerful effects, but he doesnt have a lot of corresponding skill, because his results are not as reliable as he would like. 

This system provides a very nice flexible system for magical progression in learning and skill that does not automatically translate into more powerful.  It reflects a real world availibility that i really enjoy..

[The Last Bean]

~nodnod~ I did something similar in a starwars game once. It was based off FATE 1.0, and a "force user" had aspects (that would currently be called "stunts") that allowed access to certain areas of the Force. (like mind control and such) but the actual SKILLS behind the force were "power" "control" and "empathy" of which the most relevant was used on any given roll. Helping someone else jump with the force was power more than empathy, but using the force to speed them up in combat was empathy, whereas flying your weapon over to protect them was control. Was pretty interesting gameplay and to date the most successful game I have ever run.