Order of the blackened Denarius Question.

[Grasharm]

In a recent session of DFRPG me and the Gm had a heated Debate about the semantics of what constitutes free will when picking up an order coin. My character a Warden Wizard had the coin flung at him by none other than Nicodemus himself. Does the action of Catching it without knowing what it is mean the fallen angel is now a part of me? or would i have had to make a conscious decision to take the coin in order for the fallen angel to take hold?

[Taran]

Free will is about intent, IMO.  The act of "picking up" a coin and "picking up" the entity are two different things.

But, my understanding is that, simply, touching the coin gives the Fallen the opportunity to start tempting you to use it.  In fact, I think that's kind of the point.  Even Michael, a Knight of the Cross, refrains from touching one.  But then again, Michael knew what he was picking up.  But, I'm sure, the coins are purposely left lying around so that unsuspecting people pick them up.  They also don't know what the coin is, but the act of picking it up, allows the angel to begin tempting them.

A denarian coin can't remove your free will.  But it can keep working away at you until you have none left.  Basically, it convinces you to choose it over something else until it imprisons you in a cage of your own free will.  Which reminds me of a very a good quote that I read somewhere that I need to find...

What were you hoping for?  To just drop it as soon as you realized what it was without it affecting you?  I'm not sure that that will work...but that's just IMO.

[Grasharm]

Thank you for your feedback, hopefully we can get some more to make a comparison.

[Haru]

Pretty much what Taran said. If you touch a coin, the shadow of the fallen gets into you and starts to talk you into picking up the coin. Though that doesn't have to happen immediately. Look at Harry, it took over a year before anything happened.

On the other hand, if you don't want your character to deal with that whole fallen-in-your-head thing, and that's what it sounds like, and your GM forces you anyway, that's a bad move on his part, I think. Talk to him, and maybe you can come to a different conclusion. Maybe you can retcon wearing a glove, or simply retcon to letting it fall into the mud. Compels are a good thing, but only if they are mutually agreed upon and fun for everyone.

[Taran]

Yeah, I was going to mention that picking up a coin should involve some kind of roll or a compel.  As in, OOC, the GM should have let you know it was a coin (even if your character did not know what it was). 

[Grasharm]

I really appreciate the prompt feedback guys/gals. While I wasn't thrilled to take possession of the coin, I know my DM and no amount of feet stomping is going to change that. What bugs me is he threw this coin at me during RP and when I caught it his exact words "You're screwed now" and he immediately went into explaining the permanent penalties i would be taking to all social rolls, which i found a little unfair. While the benefits of using this coin are nice, my character can only be described as a lawful good paladin. He would NEVER utilize this power for anything and would sooner die before that happens.

[Cadd]

That is an absolute dick move on the GM's part. Sure, you can consider anything Nicodemus lobs at you to be suspect, but that kind nonconsensual messing with a players character is not only diametrically opposite to the philosophy of cooperation in FATE, it's just straight up rude and disrespectful.

[Sanctaphrax]

Setting aside your GM's jerk-ish-ness, DFRPG doesn't really do penalties. The drawbacks of the coin should be handled through Compels.

[Grasharm]

I really appreciate the feedback guys, I actually emailed the GM and backed out of the game today. I really appreciate all your replies

[blackstaff67]

Tell him that if he wants you back in (if that is at all advisable) that he's going to have to negotiate with you over your PC's Fate; this is not the game for arbitrary GM behavior.

[Katarn]

Everything has more or less been said.  The three important things:
*Books are a good canon to use for questions about abilities.
*Fate system is about choices and compels.
*GMs are there to provide a fun and enriching experience.

In the first respect, I would focus on Harry's "choice" to save little Harry from the coin.  It was a choice made of free will so it provided the Denarian an opening.  It was a conscious choice.  I don't think lobbing a coin at someone involves a conscious choice to interact with the coin- if that was the case, why would Nicodemus not lob the coin at a world leader?

Furthermore, the scene probably could've been handled with some compel (for a FP, your character knowingly catches the coin).  Having a Denarian spirit should've been an option, not a mandate.  Finally, if your GM is that stubborn and railroading AFTER a discussion (he/she may not have fully realized the implications or flaws to their design), just drop the game.  There are always other GMs that a more inclined to a more wholesome existence. 

[Rossbert]

I feel like it is a large kerfuffle about very little.
To start, let us establish some terminology. Pick up the coin is physically touching the thing=shadow, take up the coin is the term for a full on demon partnership/subjugation.
If you caught it, barehanded, you do get the shadow, pretty much no questions asked, but you could have made a pretty good argument against skin contact, I wear long sleeves and even gloves a good bit of the time (it's cold up here) and I'm more likely to get things thrown at me to hit my sleeve or sweatshirt more than my hand.  That might be a coordination issue on my part.
The shadow is free.  Taking up the coin is what will cost you refresh.  In the mean time you get a friend in your head who is (probably) very helpful and will offer all sorts of advice and will you tell all about how the coin, and demon proper, will help you.  This sounds like 1. a great place to get fate points 2. a fun narrative to run your character through.  Have fun with the temptation of power story you've been offered and if it comes to it, you now (like most templates come with) have a great "going out with a bang" option.

[Taran]

I feel like it is a large kerfuffle about very little.
To start, let us establish some terminology. Pick up the coin is physically touching the thing=shadow, take up the coin is the term for a full on demon partnership/subjugation.

This is what I was trying to say in my first post.

If you caught it, barehanded, you do get the shadow, pretty much no questions asked, but you could have made a pretty good argument against skin contact, I wear long sleeves and even gloves a good bit of the time (it's cold up here) and I'm more likely to get things thrown at me to hit my sleeve or sweatshirt more than my hand.  That might be a coordination issue on my part.
The shadow is free.  Taking up the coin is what will cost you refresh.  In the mean time you get a friend in your head who is (probably) very helpful and will offer all sorts of advice and will you tell all about how the coin, and demon proper, will help you.  This sounds like 1. a great place to get fate points 2. a fun narrative to run your character through.  Have fun with the temptation of power story you've been offered and if it comes to it, you now (like most templates come with) have a great "going out with a bang" option.

I kind of agree, although, I feel it would require an Aspect change...and that's the kind of thing that needs to get discussed before it happens...or, if it doesn't, and he doesn't want the shadow, he could just, maybe, make a declaration saying he was wearing gloves or something.  But the GM and the player should be on-board with whatever decision is made.

[HumAnnoyd]

A slightly different scenario but what is to prevent a Denarion Demon from torturing a perspective host until the take up a coin?  And what would that entail?  Would they have to break the subject before the shadow would enter them or would simply putting it in their restrained hand do it? 

[Haru]

A slightly different scenario but what is to prevent a Denarion Demon from torturing a perspective host until the take up a coin?  And what would that entail?  Would they have to break the subject before the shadow would enter them or would simply putting it in their restrained hand do it?

There is nothing to prevent a Denarian from forcing himself on a person like that. In fact, Tessa and her posse seem to be doing that on a regular basis, I believe. It just takes a human soul to say "yes" to the fallen angel, because they can't just overpower a human host. How that consent comes to be, however, is completely up to you.