Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]

[SAZ]

  Oh, but I love the old 1930's movie version with ten year old Mickey Rooney as Puck!  The altered a little of it, but the story is still the same.  Oh and the special effects for the time are really amazing.  Otherwise yeah on stage version is also good..

Well - I never saw that one... will have to keep it in mind. Didn't Rooney just past this year?

[Orbweaver]

As with most of the things I have ever posted, I feel like this is more a gathering of information than a theory, with the exceptions of a few minor conclusions at the end, and the stuff I said in the 1st reply. 

The one link I can easily cite is that Jim has said that every single Fae has a bit of mortal in them...  I'm not confident I understand what you are trying to work backwards towards from there though...

TCF and I are working together to do a major update to the WoJ compilation, and over the course of this work, several interesting WoJ's are coming forefront to my attention.  Two interesting ones that in some ways seem to be contradictory in my mind, and in other ways build off each other in interesting ways are:

(click to show/hide)

And here is another, older WoJ that is also pertinent:

(click to show/hide)

What does this mean, and how does it apply to the origins of the Fae?  Welllll, in terms of "the cosmic forces of the universe" they could be considered beings who "don't change"  yet, apparently Mortal, Free Will driven choices can determine their prominence in reality, to the point of altering which forces in a particular version of reality hold sway over that reality...

Ok. You're stating that these two WOJ's seem to be pointing to the idea that Free Willed Choice is what determines who has control of a particular portion of reality, correct?

I am not certain this premise is correct, as there is also a WOJ that Ferrovax once held dominion over certain aspects of creation. Why that changed, how he got it, whether that covers all aspects in all of creation or just some of it, or if those aspects are still around is pure speculation at this point. I do not think there is any evidence pointing to Ferrovax having had Free Will itself, is there?

There may be an alternate explanation involving the same entity that supports the premise, though. It is stated that Dragons almost universally resent humanity for how they changed/altered things. (I'm terrible at locating quotes, but I'm hoping someone else might be able to dig them up).

Now for the actual theorizing...  This is dipping into my "Mantle Theory" ideas, something that I'm working hard to make a major post about in the next month or so.

So what if some of these choices made by those with free will that cause certain cosmic powers to come to prominence in reality also involve taking on some of the aspects, powers and responsibilities of these cosmic powers/entities.  And one of the flavors of how this could have happened in the past, could have involved changing some of these pivotal mortals into Sidhe.

Now for another what-if, which IMO is not as pivotal but is a deliberate nod to some of what Orbweaver seems to be looking towards.  What if there was another ancient human-like race hewn from the muck of Earth in parallel with the human race.  This hypothetical race also possessed free will, and in making some of these reality deterministic choices they were the ones that morphed into the Sidhe and took on those roles and responsibilities.

In my opinion, this last what-if adds some unnecessary but interesting complexity to the DF back-story.  I prefer to stick with the Sidhe originally being humans, but it certainly is a valid hypothesis.

Edit:  I think I will be splicing some of these thoughts into the 1st reply.

That's sort of what I was getting at, yes.

[Serack]

Ok. You're stating that these two WOJ's seem to be pointing to the idea that Free Willed Choice is what determines who has control of a particular portion of reality, correct?

I am not certain this premise is correct, as there is also a WOJ that Ferrovax once held dominion over certain aspects of creation. Why that changed, how he got it, whether that covers all aspects in all of creation or just some of it, or if those aspects are still around is pure speculation at this point. I do not think there is any evidence pointing to Ferrovax having had Free Will itself, is there?

First I'm not sure "who" is the best term.  Although Jim does use the term "actual beings" he also throws around terms like "cosmic forces" when describing this stuff (and a lot of his WoJ's seem to use that term specifically for Mother Winter by the way, implying to me that she encompasses more than a "who").  But yah, other than some terminology quibbles (Besides "who" I'd also prefer something other than "control" maybe influence or authority over) that's pretty much my point, and in fact it is almost explicitly stated by the 3rd WoJ.

Second, there is a bit of a chicken and the egg in my theorizing in the form of the question of, "what free will first spun out the initial disposition of cosmic forces".  Certainly not Humanity, but something I guess.  From that perspective, maybe Fero came from an older, free willed race that predated the formation of Earth itself.  Or maybe he is a construct created by something with free will to serve the purposes he did until further free will choices supplanted his significance.  (I highly suspect that this whole free will determining the shape of reality and what cosmic forces have preeminence is an iterative process)

But yes some of those things you listed are speculation, but not all, and I'd say that using the WoJ's I quoted, my theory causes the rest to be very informed speculation.  Don't agree with me?  Here's the Fero WoJ.  Defend that everything you described as speculation is.

6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast.  It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos.  He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment.  He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession.  There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.

There may be an alternate explanation involving the same entity that supports the premise, though. It is stated that Dragons almost universally resent humanity for how they changed/altered things. (I'm terrible at locating quotes, but I'm hoping someone else might be able to dig them up).

That's sort of what I was getting at, yes.

what same entity, which premise...

[Mira]

Well - I never saw that one... will have to keep it in mind. Didn't Rooney just past this year?

He died at the end of last month..

[Serack]

I'd like to point out that in my OP, I also explicitly stated that when we get to Mother Winter's echelon, the rules seem to be different.  Apparently there are some bedrock cosmic forces that have next to no turnover rate.  However, these cosmic forces certainly have their influence affected by Humanity's choices.  Granny doesn't have her walking stick any more, and that affects her ability to move about and influence things. 

OTOH, her walking stick probably represents an aspect of her authority and power, and thus while wielded with a mortal will, that portion of her cosmic force is in some ways more directly influencing events on the ground as you might say. 

Which sounds a bit like a mortal taking up power and responsibility over a certain aspect of reality and being influenced by that power and responsibility to the point that they morph into say, one of the Sidhe.

Good ole Granny is still around, and she hasn't "changed" but her direct influence over reality has, and in this hypothetical situation, we have a new immortal that has responsibility for/authority over an aspect of reality.

[Mira]

OTOH, her walking stick probably represents an aspect of her authority and power, and thus while wielded with a mortal will, that portion of her cosmic force is in some ways more directly influencing events on the ground as you might say. 

Which makes you wonder, were mortals meant to wield such power?  It has been theorized that the "Blackstaff"  is Granny Winter's walking stick.  It is wielded by Eb, a wizard of complete integrity, trusted not to abuse such power..  But isn't wielding it at all an abuse, since it was not meant for mortal hands?  Things like sending a satellite crashing down on Ortega's head....  Was that something that Eb could have down unaided? Is he that powerful?  Or was he aided by the Blackstaff, and did he go too far, no matter how good his motives?

[Lost Merlin]

Which makes you wonder, were mortals meant to wield such power?  It has been theorized that the "Blackstaff"  is Granny Winter's walking stick.  It is wielded by Eb, a wizard of complete integrity, trusted not to abuse such power..  But isn't wielding it at all an abuse, since it was not meant for mortal hands?  Things like sending a satellite crashing down on Ortega's head....  Was that something that Eb could have down unaided? Is he that powerful?  Or was he aided by the Blackstaff, and did he go too far, no matter how good his motives?

I think that the WC using a team work spell probably would have been able to pull down that satellite, but I would imagine the reason for the staff is so that one person can work alone and the rest have plausible deniability or whatever. 

As far as doing too much or going to far as Eb is concerned he is the black staff which iirc a position designed to cast aside all rules, regulations, and morals.  The point of the position is to do what is necessary to complete the objectives that have best outcome for Humanity/Eb/WC.  It does seem that weilding the staff does have consequences.  In Ch we see black veins in Ebs are when he connects to the staff that seem to spread or pulse with the taking of souls. 

[Mira]

I think that the WC using a team work spell probably would have been able to pull down that satellite, but I would imagine the reason for the staff is so that one person can work alone and the rest have plausible deniability or whatever. 

As far as doing too much or going to far as Eb is concerned he is the black staff which iirc a position designed to cast aside all rules, regulations, and morals.  The point of the position is to do what is necessary to complete the objectives that have best outcome for Humanity/Eb/WC.  It does seem that weilding the staff does have consequences.  In Ch we see black veins in Ebs are when he connects to the staff that seem to spread or pulse with the taking of souls.

That is not what I was trying to ask..  The stick belonged to an immortal power, should it even be wielded by a human, even a powerful wizard one.

[Lost Merlin]

That is not what I was trying to ask..  The stick belonged to an immortal power, should it even be wielded by a human, even a powerful wizard one.

I kind of purposely avoided that question because that's too much of a morals question.  As far as the staff is concerned Mortals have to contend with many different powerful beings that they have no purpose encountering and no chance at standing up too (Loupe Garu) Maybe the stick levels the playing field for humans? If thats the case why not use it rather than hope/believe that someone else will save/help you out. 

Should we use nuclear energy to power buildings because it is so powerful, but it also allows people to get their hands on nuclear weapons.  It is a give and take.  A weight of negatives against positives. 

[Quantus]

As far as doing too much or going to far as Eb is concerned he is the black staff which iirc a position designed to cast aside all rules, regulations, and morals.  The point of the position is to do what is necessary to complete the objectives that have best outcome for Humanity/Eb/WC.  It does seem that wielding the staff does have consequences.  In Ch we see black veins in Ebs are when he connects to the staff that seem to spread or pulse with the taking of souls.

I would argue the exact opposite:  that the position of Blackstaff exists specifically to preserve the rules and morals, that it exists to protect the Spirit of the Laws from their Letter, so that legalese shenanigans cant be used to sidestep the protections that the Laws were intended to provide.  And this is the point I think Harry missed in the books: If you have one License to Kill, you dont give it to the cold-blooded murderer, you give it to the person you trust most to act responsibly with it.  Harry jumped straight to the assumption that McCoy was a political stooge of the Council rather than, in some ways, its conscience. 

I kind of purposely avoided that question because that's too much of a morals question.  As far as the staff is concerned Mortals have to contend with many different powerful beings that they have no purpose encountering and no chance at standing up too (Loupe Garu) Maybe the stick levels the playing field for humans? If thats the case why not use it rather than hope/believe that someone else will save/help you out. 

Is it a moral question, or just one of whether there will be eventual Fallout for using a power intended for beings that cannot be killed? Similar to how Harry has been repeatedly cautions against tapping the Ley Line of Demonreach (Which I personally think he will not be able to safely do until HE is the Blackstaff)

[Lost Merlin]

I would argue the exact opposite:  that the position of Blackstaff exists specifically to preserve the rules and morals, that it exists to protect the Spirit of the Laws from their Letter, so that legalese shenanigans cant be used to sidestep the protections that the Laws were intended to provide.  And this is the point I think Harry missed in the books: If you have one License to Kill, you dont give it to the cold-blooded murderer, you give it to the person you trust most to act responsibly with it.  Harry jumped straight to the assumption that McCoy was a political stooge of the Council rather than, in some ways, its conscience. 

I think you and I are in agreement rather than at odds here.  The position exists because it has to exist to keep the laws alive. 

Is it a moral question, or just one of whether there will be eventual Fallout for using a power intended for beings that cannot be killed? Similar to how Harry has been repeatedly cautions against tapping the Ley Line of Demonreach (Which I personally think he will not be able to safely do until HE is the Blackstaff)

I read it as a moral question, it could be a question of fallout.  One of the fallout's I noted earlier was the black veins which will probably kill/corupt Eb when they get to his heart.  The other question I guess would be if there are external consequences for the magic being frequently released in to the world.  To that I don't know and have no idea if there is any texts in the books YET that explain it. 

[Quantus]

I read it as a moral question, it could be a question of fallout.  One of the fallout's I noted earlier was the black veins which will probably kill/corupt Eb when they get to his heart.

Oh, I read those veins as sucking the black magic taint out of him, so that it couldnt accumulate and warp his soul.

[Serack]

Ok, I ran down and transcribed the WoJ that is in the back of my mind when I brought up this stuff about the blackstaff

The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe.  But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers. 

Which makes you wonder, were mortals meant to wield such power?  It has been theorized that the "Blackstaff"  is Granny Winter's walking stick.  It is wielded by Eb, a wizard of complete integrity, trusted not to abuse such power..  But isn't wielding it at all an abuse, since it was not meant for mortal hands?  Things like sending a satellite crashing down on Ortega's head....  Was that something that Eb could have down unaided? Is he that powerful?  Or was he aided by the Blackstaff, and did he go too far, no matter how good his motives?

Jim has set up the Blackstaff as essentially a mind shield to protect from the consequences of performing black magic, and has reinforced that this is it's mechanism when used by a mortal in many many WoJs. 

The avoiding the consequenses part is the only reason why I hesitate to say that wielding it can't be an abuse as long as it is a Mortal's free will that is doing the acutal wielding.  To me the actual question of interest is, "Will wielding the power result in becoming an immortal, and losing your free will all together?"

Oh, I read those veins as sucking the black magic taint out of him, so that it couldnt accumulate and warp his soul.

I agree with this interpretation.

[Lost Merlin]

Well I shall amend my opinion of the Blackstaff then.  Thanks Quantus and Serack. 

[Tami Seven]

I thought I'd throw this in here, just for fun. Something I posted a while back:

from: lt_murgen on October 14, 2013, 05:52:49 AM]

    Since favors are essentially Fae currency, it stands to reason that something must exist to keep the fae courts from accruing too much favor for the sake of balance.  Thus the wyld fae could be the balance agent.  Some go to one court or the other and ask for a favor, thus making a 'deposit' into their power base.  Others are needed, thus making a withdrawl (the courts now owe them something).

    The bigger question is, where do wyldfae, particularly the wee folk, come from?

In the beginning, the Big Bang produced not one, but multiple Universes. Binding these Universes together is a tenuous region of magic we know as the NeverNever. As mortal lives evolved from within each universe, the magic of the NeverNever gave birth to tiny beings. Creatures made of pure magical energies.

In some worlds, the barrier between them and the NeverNever became thin and magic leaked out, infusing some mortals with its power. In time, the tiny beings of the NeverNever also found ways of entering the Mortal world. It is through interactions between these Fae/Pixies/Little Folk and mortals that both became stronger,  more powerful.

In time, many of these magical creatures began adapting themselves to the mortal world, becoming more human or animalistic in appearance and form. Even to the point of being able to crossbreed with mortals. Those are the ones who gained the most power, the ones known a Sidhe as well as other similar beings.

Like Mortals,  evolved beings of magic began to organize into societies,  Courts as they are called. But many of these beings did not fit into these societies and remained Wyld, solitary or tribal but not belonging to any larger Court.

The ones that adapted the least, that remained closer to the original, pre-evolutionary form, are the ones like Toot Toot. However,  the more interaction even these little ones have with mortals,  the more like mortals they become.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 06:33:45 AM by Tami Seven »