Magic Shields vs. Incite Emotions

[Blackmako]

It does make sense if you consider this...1 stress for a shield vs an attack that lands that can take a chunk of stress. The reason for this post wasn't an expression of my opinion. It was to get information on how magic blocks work vs incite emotion and what the shift cost is for said block. I am clear on how thaum works to protect.

Sometimes that party gets ambushed. Thaum isn't the best vs ambush.

So now I have more clarity as a GM on one tool in a tool bag that wizards can use to counter. It also helps to know how a party tends to roll. They are more on the evocation side in response. I do let them squirm a lot but not to the degree that I trash their characters over their chosen play style. Lead flies and out comes shields. Now emotion bullets fly...

[Taran]

I was thinking that A straight up discipline skill replacement item would be very useful to act as a "dodge" against incite attacks.

Of course, that has nothing to do with your question...

[Blackmako]

It definitely would. And it would not cost mental stress to fuel.

Though I will let the players figure that one out on their own.

[killking72]

But seriously. In every mental conflict in the books, dresden specifically says he "brought up his mental defenses" and "I tried to quell the fury of my raging emotions". Those are al discipline based. Everything we know says it doesn't work like that

[Mr. Death]

But seriously. In every mental conflict in the books, dresden specifically says he "brought up his mental defenses" and "I tried to quell the fury of my raging emotions". Those are al discipline based. Everything we know says it doesn't work like that

Except in Summer Knight where his and Murphy's protection against the Mindfog is explicitly spellcraft, and in Dead Beat, where he defends against Corpsetaker's mental attack with Hellfire--magic spells.

Just because Harry in particular tends to do it one way doesn't mean it's impossible for him and others to do it another way.

[Rossbert]

Not to pick nits, but those examples might be iffy.
Mind fog: He actually cast a spell to keep the fog from touching (or getting into) Murphy, the part on him may have been that or just a discipline boost against it.
Corpsetaker: It wasn't so much he used Hellfire to defend as it was almost a counterattack that hurt her enough to not keep walking into the flames so to speak.

[killking72]

Except in Summer Knight where his and Murphy's protection against the Mindfog is explicitly spellcraft, and in Dead Beat, where he defends against Corpsetaker's mental attack with Hellfire--magic spells.

Just because Harry in particular tends to do it one way doesn't mean it's impossible for him and others to do it another way.

Yes, your examples are perfectly right. Harry used a thaumaturgy as a block or something like that. When Harry defended against corpse taker, that was an actual magic attack. You know, the laws of MAGIC. You shall not invade the minds of others. I've said it before in this thread. If a white court uses invite emotion on you, and it connects, you defend with your discipline to keep your emotions in control. That is how it works for emotions. Now, the only way I can see you block against it is if somehow you can word a spell to make a zone barrier against ranged inciting, which says you can use it one zone away, without penalty. So I can only think of maybe if you make an very specific enchanted item like the sunshine in a napkin, or putting up a circle, but as for just throwing up a magical block it doesn't fit. Let's say you get hit with invite emotion fear. You're attacked with the beings intimidate. Let's say a superb intimidation. The only people who would evocative block this at your power level would be wizards so assume a 5 conviction or discipline. If it's a 5 discipline wizard, you just roll discipline and there's a 50/50  chance to be hurt . Now, if you use an evocated block, you will 100% of the time take a mental stress at least one stress, possibly way more depending on rolls. Using evocation right then makes so sense at all.

TLDR: using an evocation to block complicates the system which already has a simple, less dangerous, and very effective way of combatting this power

[Mr. Death]

You could use that same logic to say that evocation blocks against physical attacks complicate the system because there is already a simple, less dangerous, and effective way of avoiding it by using a dodge roll.

There is nothing in the text or the lore that says you can only block something with magic if it's a magic spell.

[killking72]

You could use that same logic to say that evocation blocks against physical attacks complicate the system because there is already a simple, less dangerous, and effective way of avoiding it by using a dodge roll.

There is nothing in the text or the lore that says you can only block something with magic if it's a magic spell.

You're completely 100% right. To me using magic to block seems like a useless way to dodge something unless you know it's going to hit you incredibly hard if it touches you. But the thing is, there is actually an upper level of incite emotion damage you can do, I've never seen a monster with more than a superb skill, so the average you'll be hit with, assuming matching discipline/(intimidation or deceit) will be 0 stress. So if you're any type of spell caster at the submerged dificulty, you will have a high discipline. I just don't understand why people would want to overcomplicate for seemingly poorer results.

[Taran]

Well, blocks are part of the game.  I don't see how it complicates anything or why you wouldn't use them.  I play a wizard and I use blocks all the time whether or not I think they're going to hit me hard...in fact they're my main way to defend because my athletics tends to be lower than my spell-casting skills.

Besides, I think I gave perfectly valid, narrative reasons to use physical blocks to block incite emotion.

You need to see your target to hit.  Vampires don't have any supernatural senses to detect their prey. Narratively, a veil or a block on line-of-sight could make an incite less effective.  So while it's not specifically under a veil, narratively, it prevents a vampire from zoning in on you and hitting you hard.

And that's not even considering that, if they don't have the ranged upgrade, you could argue that you could use athletics to dodge (since they have to touch you).  And, By that argument, any old magical block would do the trick.

So, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to say that you can use the meta-physical form of the element to protect you from a meta-physical attack.

Edit:  I get the feeling that you feel it's too OP to use SPellcasting to block incite emotion.  Remember, they have to, either, dedicate an item to defense, or spend an action blocking.  Either way, they still get their natural discipline to "dodge".  I don't see the problem letting them use an action to do that.

[killking72]

Because evocation blocks are part of the game?  I don't see how it complicates anything or why you wouldn't use them.  I play a wizard and I use blocks all the time whether or not I think they're going to hit me hard...in fact they're my main way to defend because my athletics tends to be lower than my spell-casting skills.

Besides, I think I gave perfectly valid, narrative reasons to use physical blocks to block incite emotion.

You need to see your target to hit.  Vampires don't have any supernatural senses to detect their prey. Narratively, a veil or a block on line-of-sight could make an incite less effective.  So while it's not specifically under a veil, narratively, it prevents a vampire from zoning in on you and hitting you hard.

And that's not even considering that, if they don't have the ranged upgrade, you could argue that you could use athletics to dodge (since they have to touch you).  And, By that argument, any old magical block would do the trick.

So, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to say that you can use the meta-physical form of the element to protect you from a meta-physical attack.

Edit:  I get the feeling that you feel it's too OP to use SPellcasting to block incite emotion.  Remember, they have to, either, dedicate an item to defense, or spend an action blocking.  Either way, they still get their natural discipline to "dodge".  I don't see the problem letting them use an action to do that.

Yes, I've said before that with the ranged upgrade, you could set up some border for them to have to pass to hit you: A circle, a veil, what have you. And the athletics to dodge being touches makes sense, but we're actually talking about the emotion and its affect on you. When something has hit you with the emotion, and you have to defend against what the emotion is making you feel, that is a discipline roll to keep yourself in check. What people have been saying is using an actual evocation block in your head to block the damage.

Blocking the targeting with evocation, yes. Blocking it when it's inside your mind, no.

[PirateJack]

Yes, I've said before that with the ranged upgrade, you could set up some border for them to have to pass to hit you: A circle, a veil, what have you. And the athletics to dodge being touches makes sense, but we're actually talking about the emotion and its affect on you. When something has hit you with the emotion, and you have to defend against what the emotion is making you feel, that is a discipline roll to keep yourself in check. What people have been saying is using an actual evocation block in your head to block the damage.

Blocking the targeting with evocation, yes. Blocking it when it's inside your mind, no.

That's possibly why shields can only be set up in advance in the rulebook, instead of reflexively. So if you're caught off guard by a White Court Vampire and don't have a shield up, you get to defend with Discipline rather than spellcasting. If you're aware there is one in the area and set up a mental shield beforehand, sure, then you can use spellcasting to defend with. After all, if he's already inside there's not much you can do to defend yourself other than trying to regain control of your mind.

That's how it worked in Dead Beat, after all. Harry first failed his basic Discipline defence roll against Corpsetaker when she dug in his head for information (the first action of the conflict). Harry then set up a mental defence evocation to defend his mind, shoring it up with his new power Hellfire to give it some extra duration. Corpsetaker redoubled her efforts but couldn't break through, which allowed Harry the chance to run away out the back door.

However, at that point Corpsetaker's ghoul joined in the fight, hitting him with a throwing star and giving him a mild consequence that Corpsetaker then took advantage of to break through his mental defences and Take Him Out.

[Taran]

Blocking the targeting with evocation, yes. Blocking it when it's inside your mind, no.

It sounds like semantics.  There's no Inside or outside your wizards head. Mechanically, you put up a block against attacks. 

Evocation doesn't let you do reflexive blocks anyways and I don't think that's what the OP was asking.

They were asking if you could use any type of evocation to defend.  I say yes.  Can it be a physical block?  I say yes, in most situations.  Can it be meta-physical?  I think it can.  It helps to shore up your mind against the attack.

I like the idea of a compel if you're not allowed to use a particular block.

Can you reflexively use magic to block?  Only with Enchanted items.  (unless you house-rule)

[Haru]

Blocking the targeting with evocation, yes. Blocking it when it's inside your mind, no.

Blocking doesn't mean you put a shield between yourself and whatever is trying to hurt you. It is a mechanical construct that means an active attempt to avoid harm, rather than passively defending.

There's a lot magic can do, and there are a lot of shapes magic can take. Harry is an unreliable source at best, and he's pretty biased and self centered when it comes to the understanding of the world. A magic block against despair could simply mean that you take a bunch of strong positive memories and magically reinforce them in your mind. Even if the despair is rushing into your mind and you can't think straight, those memories will shine bright in your minds eye, like a lighthouse in a storm, and they will help you weather it. Mechanically, that can be easily described as a block, even though when you describe what happens, the despair seems to take hold at first.

And you can go in a different direction, depending on what element you use. There might even be a hiccup with the spell. Let's say you use water magic with its entropy to distort your emotions. If your mind is set up so that no one emotion can manifest itself, the despair won't have a chance as well. But so won't concern for your own life, or compassion for a friend, and you might end up hurting yourself or recklessly using your friend as bait.

As with a lot of things, it all comes down to how you can describe it. And as always, if you absolutely don't think it should work like that, your table doesn't have to adopt it like that.

[Blackmako]

I'm not sure that I agree with magic only defending physical/outside. From the books magic is about Will and Belief (discipline and conviction). Both are "interior" qualities. The book directly states that the element of spirit is about emotions as well as the mind. It also has that "block is a block is a block" commentary. Previous posters on this thread opened my eyes to that.

I did just learn now from this thread that you can't reflexively block with evocation unless house ruled. Something to discuss with the group. Really shows the importance of preparation and thaumaturgy. So thanks for that point as well.

Discipline vs incite does not zero out even at superb vs superb. Emotion touch gives a +2. And the attacks are at weapon 2 and weapon 4. Barely get hit with weapon 4 there goes the stress track. Get hit twice a wizard is really going to run out of gas. I know this as one player was ambushed by a WCV and ate the wizards stress and mental consequences. Got hit with a sticky maneuver first (using the + 2 and 2 shifts from contested roll). Then using the maneuver to successfully hit with the potent emotion. Later the same wizard with mild and moderate consequences ended up confronting the Outsider. Fortunately thaum was used to push back despair beforehand. Point being that incite emotion can hammer wizards as it attacks the muscles behind their primary power. So I know that wizard is going to be looking at ways to deal with incite whether or not he can anticipate or gets ambushed. Also said wizard might have to shield the muscle headed members of the party.

All of your posts have given me a better understanding to GM incite vs wizards. Items to buttress mental defense or thaum is most effective. Caught with pants down I know can see how a wizard can throw up a slightly costly defense. That being said non-magic using types can get mangled by incite.