Author Topic: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes  (Read 52865 times)

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2014, 03:20:12 PM »
Assuming that LR had had the shield a long time, and that most experienced Wizards either knew about it or had heard rumors about it, and that Maggie either knew about it or heard rumors about it.

Didn't Eb only find out about it when trying to kill Lord R after Maggie's death, or am I misremembering ?  If so, I'd say that argues against it being well known or rumoured.

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As much as I find this UMO theory interesting, I still don't think it answers the questions well enough about Maggie and LR.

Well, that wasn't the scale of thing it was intended to explain.  I don't actually see much needing explanation there, though.  We know from Luccio in SmF that Maggie was a political radical within the White Council, and at odds with their power structure;  if she wanted allies elsewhere, the White Court seem to be the least monstrous available option.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2014, 03:25:06 PM »
That would depend, I suppose, on what Harry actually gained by way of perspective.

"Lies. She cannot change who you are."

Harry gained the impression that that meant he had some degree of control over his destiny at the scales he cares about.  Mab then gains a Knight who is willing to stay Knight because he believes he can resist if asked to do anything he finds unpalatable.

Harry also gained, via Molly, a wake-up call on the degree of collateral damage it can cause when he goes with his gut and does not think things through, which i hope will sink in and make a significant difference.

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If Lash is against one or more of team UMO's goals... why on earth would that shadow have bothered revealing that information to Harry?

I'm not convinced she is against their goals; I speculate that her purpose is to challenge him in order to enable him to be granted soulfire.  Challenge specifically as opposed to defeat.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2014, 03:25:48 PM »
So does the much more limited context of Bob's assertion change you theory RE. Mab's involvement?

Not really; Uriel pushing Harry into Mab's arms in Changes is still there, as is the benefit to Uriel and Mab both of the end of GS.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 03:28:56 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2014, 03:28:32 PM »
Because he'd be dead.

Why would she be thinking on that scale ?

Remember, we know from Luccio that Maggie is a political idealist who wants to change things for the better.  Even if you don't find my notion of her planning a starborn as an extension of that tenable, I'm really not seeing why assume she would find killing him a more emotionally appealing use of her death curse than combining an enduring revenge on him with placing a restraint on his entire supernatural nation.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2014, 03:31:57 PM »
But even so, what she did doesn't require any sort of trap door.  Like Harry said, she can just overlap her curse without needing to penetrate his protection.  Stop the energy from ever getting to him, rather than stop him from absorbing it, or whatever.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2014, 04:53:00 PM »
Not really; Uriel pushing Harry into Mab's arms in Changes is still there, as is the benefit to Uriel and Mab both of the end of GS.
What then would support the idea that she is an active participant getting getting a quid pro quo in terms of unrelated Intell, rather than just another catspaw scenario?
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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #96 on: March 17, 2014, 06:20:00 PM »
What then would support the idea that she is an active participant getting getting a quid pro quo in terms of unrelated Intell, rather than just another catspaw scenario?

Uriel phrasing his reassurance to Harry in ways which, while literally true, led to a change in Harry's position (viz, Harry believing he can balk Mab's orders if he needs to) which is immediately beneficial to Mab (in that without it, it's been demonstrated, Harry finds living as a monster untenable and arranges own death).

As for catspaws... Mab has no free will. Uriel has no free will relevant to tactical details here - the scale at which he has free will is "choose to crash and burn and become a second Morningstar or not".   So it seems quite plausible to me that either of them are exactly predictable to the other given a defined initial circumstance; I would not count that as catspaws, exactly, myself, but I can see how it might look like that.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #97 on: March 17, 2014, 06:34:26 PM »
Uriel phrasing his reassurance to Harry in ways which, while literally true, led to a change in Harry's position (viz, Harry believing he can balk Mab's orders if he needs to) which is immediately beneficial to Mab (in that without it, it's been demonstrated, Harry finds living as a monster untenable and arranges own death).

As for catspaws... Mab has no free will. Uriel has no free will relevant to tactical details here - the scale at which he has free will is "choose to crash and burn and become a second Morningstar or not".   So it seems quite plausible to me that either of them are exactly predictable to the other given a defined initial circumstance; I would not count that as catspaws, exactly, myself, but I can see how it might look like that.
I would challenge this part, specifically (the bolded text).  For one thing the "did she lie" WOJ clearly (to me) sets Uriel on a higher (Cosmic) tier, one which she apparently does not grasp very well.  I think that the Mothers might on that tier and be aware enough for that sort of insight, but not the queens. 
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Offline Kscodemonkey

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2014, 04:13:08 PM »
But even so, what she did doesn't require any sort of trap door.  Like Harry said, she can just overlap her curse without needing to penetrate his protection.  Stop the energy from ever getting to him, rather than stop him from absorbing it, or whatever.

My WAG is that she didn't do anything to Lord Raith.  I think this is a hint to us that the hunger demon isn't just a metaphor, it is an actual entity.  Maybe not a physical one, but a spiritual one, and that Maggie targeted her curse at the entity and not at Lord Raith.  That is how come she was able to stop him from feeding when he can't be targeted.  She knew she couldn't do anything to him, but correctly guessed that she could cripple the demon.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2014, 04:53:48 PM »
My WAG is that she didn't do anything to Lord Raith.  I think this is a hint to us that the hunger demon isn't just a metaphor, it is an actual entity.  Maybe not a physical one, but a spiritual one, and that Maggie targeted her curse at the entity and not at Lord Raith.  That is how come she was able to stop him from feeding when he can't be targeted.  She knew she couldn't do anything to him, but correctly guessed that she could cripple the demon.
fwiw he could still use his wampire powers, just not rejuvenate his reserves. 
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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #100 on: March 20, 2014, 07:24:00 PM »
But even so, what she did doesn't require any sort of trap door.  Like Harry said, she can just overlap her curse without needing to penetrate his protection.  Stop the energy from ever getting to him, rather than stop him from absorbing it, or whatever.

This is how I see it being done, like a blanket smothering him. Just as Harry described it. Any other way is too complicated and/or less effective.
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Offline magnusth

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2014, 12:53:08 AM »
Not if the knowledge and perspective he can only gain from that walkabout is part and parcel of the training, I would think. 

I think a much simpler reason exists: Harry did not, technicaly, lie to Mab. I remain convinced that, when  Harry dealt with Mab, telling her that he had come to deal in good faith, he honestly believed he was telling the truth. That's the whole point of having Molly remove the memory of contacting Kinkaid - so that he could lie without lying. Harry understood that he would be willing to serve Mab, become the winter knight, to save his daughter, and took steps to prevent that, guided by the shadow. When he told Mab that he would not try to cheat her by killing himself, he was unaware that he had, in effect, already killed himself.
Similarly, I think we can assume that Harry has not, in fact, been proven to be willing to kill himself. The central plot point of GS was, after all, that Harry's free will had been compromised when he chose to kill himself. And while Mab might not care about or understand the discintion between an action and a choice, I'm pretty sure she understands the concept of having one's actions manipulated. Though i doubt she knew about the angel beforehand, it's plausible that Uriel has told her.

Another thing: you claim that mab used elaborate word play to pretend to be in oppostition to Uriel while actualy working with him. For example, that while she says that "had he been wrong ect. ect," It's possible that uriel simply could not have been wrong. I'd disagree with this view. The nature of the future in the Dreden files does not seem to be set in stone. In DM, we see an angelic prophecy be wrong/thwarted, and Uriel himself claims that freewill can always change things. Now, it might be almost impossible for him to be mistaken, but if it weren't a possibility, if it were not actually possible for Harry to, say, make use of Uriel's offer to join captain Jack and the others, or to simply make bad choices and overspend himself, not only does free will loose its meaning, the story becomes boring and trite, as conflict loses its value. I believe we are seeing the real thing when we are led to believe that Mab is genuinely displeased with Uriel.

That said, I do believe that Mab went along with it, probably grudgingly, and that she did, in fact, gain an asset from the whole ordeal: she got a more powerfull, willfull and headstrong knight. I think Mab values obstinence, pride, and willpower over obedience, as we see both her and her mother compliment and expect Harry's resistance, and in fact enjoy it. It is after all after Harry recieves an earfull of truth from Uriel that he challenges Mab again, promising to smite her foes and lay low her enemies, and threatening her with mediocrity. What she has gotten out of the deal is a knight who dares challenge Mab herself. I think that is, in its own way, worth it in Mab's book. If he was simply meekly obedient and dependant on Mab, he would be of much lesser use. Without the lesson that Uriel taught him, he would, for one, have been killed by Mother winter and unable to stop the battle at demonreach, or might well have chosen to become a plaything of Maeve's, going with with "I'm already a monster," line of reasoning, the meak defeatism he shows before Uriel gives him seven words. He would, in other words, not have been willfull enough to resist Mab's enemies.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2014, 02:23:00 AM »
...
That said, I do believe that Mab went along with it, probably grudgingly, and that she did, in fact, gain an asset from the whole ordeal: she got a more powerfull, willfull and headstrong knight. I think Mab values obstinence, pride, and willpower over obedience, as we see both her and her mother compliment and expect Harry's resistance, and in fact enjoy it. It is after all after Harry recieves an earfull of truth from Uriel that he challenges Mab again, promising to smite her foes and lay low her enemies, and threatening her with mediocrity. What she has gotten out of the deal is a knight who dares challenge Mab herself. I think that is, in its own way, worth it in Mab's book. If he was simply meekly obedient and dependant on Mab, he would be of much lesser use. Without the lesson that Uriel taught him, he would, for one, have been killed by Mother winter and unable to stop the battle at demonreach, or might well have chosen to become a plaything of Maeve's, going with with "I'm already a monster," line of reasoning, the meak defeatism he shows before Uriel gives him seven words. He would, in other words, not have been willfull enough to resist Mab's enemies.
I think it's hard to denie that Mab went along with it to some degree, since Lea wanted to ans was compelled by bargain to reveal to harry who actually killed him.  Uriel was the only one that wanted Harry to muddle around figuring that part out.  Both Mab and Demonreach were bound (for some reason) to play along with that part of the charade.  My objection is taking that isolated incident and using it as an excuse to to say Mab can know anything that Odin or Uriel can know in other circumstances.  That same scene is where Lea explained that such an open relationship is impossible for Fae, by their very natures which are so literally tied to balance.

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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2014, 11:06:32 AM »
I think a much simpler reason exists: Harry did not, technicaly, lie to Mab. I remain convinced that, when  Harry dealt with Mab, telling her that he had come to deal in good faith, he honestly believed he was telling the truth. That's the whole point of having Molly remove the memory of contacting Kinkaid - so that he could lie without lying.

Without realising he was lying at the time, certainly.

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Another thing: you claim that mab used elaborate word play to pretend to be in oppostition to Uriel while actualy working with him. For example, that while she says that "had he been wrong ect. ect," It's possible that uriel simply could not have been wrong. I'd disagree with this view. The nature of the future in the Dreden files does not seem to be set in stone. In DM, we see an angelic prophecy be wrong/thwarted, and Uriel himself claims that freewill can always change things.

Uriel also states, iirc, that this happens very rarely.

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Now, it might be almost impossible for him to be mistaken, but if it weren't a possibility, if it were not actually possible for Harry to, say, make use of Uriel's offer to join captain Jack and the others, or to simply make bad choices and overspend himself, not only does free will loose its meaning, the story becomes boring and trite, as conflict loses its value.

I would entirely disagree with that; seeing Uriel well manipulate a particular situation of extreme significance does not make the story as a whole lose conflict, it just illustrates that the conflict will have to be at a much more sophisticated and interesting level than Harry then thinks it is.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2014, 11:09:36 AM »
  My objection is taking that isolated incident and using it as an excuse to to say Mab can know anything that Odin or Uriel can know in other circumstances.  That same scene is where Lea explained that such an open relationship is impossible for Fae, by their very natures which are so literally tied to balance.

Nothing prevents Lea from snatching up Amoracchius when it is undefended, in GP; she is not required to give any balancing response to Heaven.   I am positing this as a reasonable model for Mab's potential interaction with Uriel.
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