How's your Wizard

[Blk4ce]

Where you get into problems is with custum powers like Stoicism that could, potentially off set mental stress.

Unfortunately, stoicism doesn't work with self-inflicted stress. There is, indeed a side note that says you could make a power like toughness that works for mental stress but it doesn't work for stress from spells (calling them at least, backlash might still be fair game).

[Cadd]

You can't find that note because i don't think it exists.

Then 'self-inflicted' stress should be worked into your catch.  If i am immune to fire, exposing myself to an open flame shouldn't act as a catch.

Toughness and recovery doesn't affect mental stress, so those powers will never off-set the stress caused by calling up power.  It only works on physical backlash.

Where you get into problems is with custum powers like Stoicism that could, potentially off set mental stress.

Huh... I was almost certain that there was a margin note regarding self-inflicted stuff bypassing armor, but I guess I must have imagined it... Apologies for using a faulty argument!

My ruling still stands - Even if I add one to the value of the catch, I'd require the catch to include backlash on top of whatever else it is. I might allow recovery to quicken the healing of backlash-caused consequences, but no shrugging off mid-fight nor using any extra stress boxes from toughness - that's as far as I would allow.

It feels a lot like when I saw someone here suggest taking consequences to meet the complexity during Preparation of a ritual, and then waiting until those consequences are gone before actually performing it, allowing those consequences to be used again to absorb backlash. It goes against what I see backlash (or in the ritual case, consequences-as-preparation) being.

[Taran]

Our group just recently had this discussion.

Our consensus was this:

Recovery and toughness cost lots of refresh and if you replace those with refinements, you're a lot less likely to be failing control rolls in the first place and probably throwing a lot more powerful spells.  Refres-wise, it's not game breaking and only represents a few extra shifts of power here or there.  And it doesn't actually let you cast more spells since that is based on mental stress.  Besides, a wizard with toghness should be able to take more punishment than one who doesn't.

For rituals, we agreed that you can't use recovery for complexity because those consequences should matter.

In the end it's up to the group.

[Blk4ce]

Cadd, as I said, there does exist that sidenote you mention, it's on page 250. Note, thought, that it says about armor not recovery.

But the catch is the catch. If the catch is holy, it can't be satisfied by you casting another element like water.

EDIT: I'll post my question again, what if you don't cast an attack but a block or a veil. Which skill matters there?

[Mr. Death]

PirateJack, I know that's the powergaming example, but I really don't think that counts as a "focused practitioner." A Focused Practitioner means they do one or two things, but they do them really well--not that they have a broad base of varied and disparate powers that don't fit into any template I'm familiar with.

[Cadd]

Cadd, as I said, there does exist that sidenote you mention, it's on page 250. Note, thought, that it says about armor not recovery.
...
EDIT: I'll post my question again, what if you don't cast an attack but a block or a veil. Which skill matters there?

Ah! Thank you! Great to know I didn't dream that up. I knew it was about armor and not recovery, but I extrapolate from that into my own ruling/interpretation that it also goes for other ways of dealing with/avoiding harm.


As for your question. Essentially, from what I can see (not a lot of experience trying out various setups), I think that as soon as you leave attacks aside a surplus of Control is a lot less powerful. Extra control on maneuvers and blocks (veils are "just" a block) doesn't really do anything. It's of course needed for targeting when maneuvering on someone else, but that's it. So for a defensive Wizard, I think a balance between Power and Control are more important; maybe even having a higher Power and eating up a bit of Backlash rather than taking the extra casting stress of having Power lower than Control.

[Taran]

Power becomes more important with maneuvers and blocks because you defend against the POWER of the spell.

Even targeting maneuvers!  The enemy defends against the Power of the Maneuver NOT the control roll!

I will find the rules for this in the book...

So, if you're going to do lots of blocking and maneuvering, you should boost your power a bit.  Of course, you still have to control this or risk back-lash, so I still think discipline is important.

Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than
attacking and blocking. By default, pulling off
most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if
the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated
higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines
the required number of shifts.

So technically, the person doesn't defend, the difficulty is their skill or 3, whichever is higher.  I always let the enemy defend.
If they fail by no shifts, the aspect is fragile, if they fail by more than 1 the aspect is sticky. (usually)

[Blk4ce]

So, if you're going to do lots of blocking and maneuvering, you should boost your control a bit.

Don't you mean boost power?

[Taran]

Uh yeah, sorry...I'll edit.

In any case, this is why I like it - obviously, this is just my preference:

I make my rotes my hardest spells to cast since they are guaranteed.  I almost never take a "1 mental stress" rote.

Example
Rote Maneuver Spell:
"off balance"

1. Power: 6 Control: 6 = 6 shift maneuver
2. Power: 7 control: 5 = 5 shift maneuver (unless you want to take backlash)
3. Power: 5 control: 7 = up to 7 shift maneuver without backlash.  it takes your 3 box.

This is why I like discipline more.  In the last example, I could have a 7 shift block: 4 for block/armour; 2 for full zone; 1 for duration.
So I could give my whole party 2 armour for two exchanges without needing to roll control.  In a couple rounds, I could spend 1 mental stress to extend it 3 rounds(power 3) and it would be a guaranteed control roll.

[Sanctaphrax]

And now for the power gaming route. Apologies in advance, I hate doing this but if we're talking optimisation this is probably the best you can get for a straight up spellslinger.

It really isn't.

Even if you accept the dubious rulings that it is founded upon, it's both under-optimized and illegal. Under-optimized because of various minor issues, illegal because your focus bonuses can't exceed your Lore.

Recovery and toughness cost lots of refresh...

No they don't. 1 Refresh will buy you a fair bit of durability. You can even have Mythic Toughness for 1 Refresh if you just want to use it for backlash.

[Taran]

Toughness for 1 Refresh if you just want to use it for backlash.

Good point, but Mythics are supposed to be GM approved, in most cases.  Would that be a +5 rebate? I mean, the rebate for "research" seems moot.

But that would be a case where you'd pump up your Power a bit over control.  But it's 3 shifts of back-lash that you're protecting yourself from, so you still have to be careful.  In any case 1 point of refresh will give you 2 shifts of control or power if you take refinement....so I don't really find it game-breaking.

[Tedronai]

Good point, but Mythics are supposed to be GM approved, in most cases.

Given that character creation as a whole is typically GM-supervised, and in Fate a matter for cooperation amongst the group as a whole (including determining which degrees of power the group is comfortable dealing with), I've never really seen the need for clauses such as that one.

[vultur]

Given that character creation as a whole is typically GM-supervised, and in Fate a matter for cooperation amongst the group as a whole (including determining which degrees of power the group is comfortable dealing with), I've never really seen the need for clauses such as that one.

I think it's just a flag that "this power is really strong in its area" for newer groups.

[Tedronai]

Unfortunately, its presence implies that powers without such a clause do not require approval, which runs rather contrary to some basic principles of the system (cooperative character creation, etc).

[Sanctaphrax]

I think the idea is to discourage PC Mythics without forbidding them outright. If everything needs approval but one thing is called out as especially needing approval, people will hesitate to approve it.

Would that be a +5 rebate? I mean, the rebate for "research" seems moot.

Could be +4 to +6 depending on how well known it is. Which is weird because how well known it is doesn't affect how useful it is...but that's the Catch for you.

But that would be a case where you'd pump up your Power a bit over control.  But it's 3 shifts of back-lash that you're protecting yourself from, so you still have to be careful.  In any case 1 point of refresh will give you 2 shifts of control or power if you take refinement....so I don't really find it game-breaking.

Dunno if I'd call it game-breaking. But wizards don't need any extra power, and spending 1 Refresh to pick up 4 points of Toughness (or 6 with an IoP) is already such a good deal that I'd rather not make it better.