Stats For Gods

[vultur]

A lot of what I said before is possibly irrelevant, as I think I've changed my mind somewhat.

Given things like Michael being able to kill a full Dragon and Harry being able to

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defeat He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab"

, I think it might make more sense to say that a Faerie Queen/Dragon/god* is "normally" a stat-less plot device, but if you encounter it under the proper conditions (being a Knight "on mission", a Starborn vs. a super-Outsider, etc.) it has a "high-end stattable" (maybe 40-some Refresh, somewhat stronger than a Senior Council member) stat-block.

*"God" maybe not being the best term, since the only straightforward god we've met in the series is Odin, who may be just plain stattable level (though top end of it) from his performance in Changes and CD. Though that WoJ about "if he
threw down with Mab, neither knows who would win" does suggest he may be more ... plot-device-ish at times too.


As for Mab's Catch - I meant to specifically write it to exclude mortal magic. Just iron, Summer power, the Winter Knight, and other god-level beings.

Not without heavy numerical inflation. A 15-shift evocation hitting a Mythically Tough character with Superb defences, or a Supernaturally Tough character with Legendary defences, or whatever, can be soaked with a few FP and consequences.

The problem is that the control roll is also insanely high. If it's 15 power 15 control, Legendary defense roll leaves you with 22 stress. Spend a FP to boost it, and Supernatural Toughness is Armor:2, that drops it to 18. Stress track will be 7-8 boxes long, so that's 10-11 stress that has to be soaked up by consequences: at least a severe and a moderate, maybe a mild too.

A character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" managed to fill up all of Cowl (as statted by Deadmanwalking)'s consequences, including extreme, in one shot. If I hadn't counted him as a "main NPC" but just "significant", he'd have been totally dead.

And Mab (or even Eldest Gruff) really ought to be far, far more powerful on offense than a 30 Refresh Warden who spent six refresh points on stunts rather than just more and more Refinement.

PS: I've been considering a custom Power or a power level rule that increases the value of a god's consequences. 2 shifts for a mild seems trivial, when the numbers are this big. Any thoughts on that?

A very good idea. I believe there was a thread on this a while back.

IMO it should probably be just a rule for really high base Refresh characters rather than a separate power.

EDIT: formatting

[narphoenix]

A character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" managed to fill up all of Cowl (as statted by Deadmanwalking)'s consequences, including extreme, in one shot. If I hadn't counted him as a "main NPC" but just "significant", he'd have been totally dead.

And Mab (or even Eldest Gruff) really ought to be far, far more powerful on offense than a 30 Refresh Warden who spent six refresh points on stunts rather than just more and more Refinement.

*whistles innocently*

[Sanctaphrax]

A lot of what I said before is possibly irrelevant, as I think I've changed my mind somewhat.

Given things like Michael being able to kill a full Dragon and Harry being able to

(click to show/hide)

defeat He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab"

, I think it might make more sense to say that a Faerie Queen/Dragon/god* is "normally" a stat-less plot device, but if you encounter it under the proper conditions (being a Knight "on mission", a Starborn vs. a super-Outsider, etc.) it has a "high-end stattable" (maybe 40-some Refresh, somewhat stronger than a Senior Council member) stat-block.

Hm, not a bad idea.

I don't believe in statless plot devices, though. If you don't have stats, you can't do anything. So I'd be inclined to stat the god-form too, possibly along the lines I've been using here.

Or possibly along simpler lines. Gods don't necessarily have to be characters, mechanically speaking. Maybe just a set of Aspects and a Miraculous Power rating...is it appropriate for a god to need to send out its avatar for social or knowledge stuff?

As for Mab's Catch - I meant to specifically write it to exclude mortal magic. Just iron, Summer power, the Winter Knight, and other god-level beings.

That makes it better.

Still kind of fragile though. Like I said, Eldest Gruff could one-shot her.

The problem is that the control roll is also insanely high. If it's 15 power 15 control, Legendary defense roll leaves you with 22 stress. Spend a FP to boost it, and Supernatural Toughness is Armor:2, that drops it to 18. Stress track will be 7-8 boxes long, so that's 10-11 stress that has to be soaked up by consequences: at least a severe and a moderate, maybe a mild too.

A character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" managed to fill up all of Cowl (as statted by Deadmanwalking)'s consequences, including extreme, in one shot. If I hadn't counted him as a "main NPC" but just "significant", he'd have been totally dead.

And Mab (or even Eldest Gruff) really ought to be far, far more powerful on offense than a 30 Refresh Warden who spent six refresh points on stunts rather than just more and more Refinement.

That's why Divine Toughness stacks forever! Each level of Divine Toughness adds 3 to amount of stress needed to one-shot you. Each level of Miraculous Power adds 2 to the amount of stress you do. So Divine Toughness should outpace Miraculous Power, leading to better-paced fights.

In theory.

A very good idea. I believe there was a thread on this a while back.

IMO it should probably be just a rule for really high base Refresh characters rather than a separate power.

Yeah, I've had this idea bouncing around for while. I may have mentioned it, or maybe I got it from the thread you're thinking of.

I might start another thread for this later, but in the meantime...what kind of multiplier would be appropriate for gods? 2.5, maybe?

5 shifts for a mild, 10 for a moderate, all the way up to 20 for an extreme. Sounds reasonable-ish for a character for whom a 10-shift evocation is a weak attack.

I'll reconsider my approach and post something new tomorrow. Gonna see if I can make this "avatar" idea work.

[InFerrumVeritas]

For characters like this, I write up a series of aspects and challenge ratings.

Social Challenge 6
Physical Challenge 8
Magical Challenge 12

For example.  Sometimes, I'll split these into offense/defense.  Any stress boxes I'd give them would be purely narrative.  They wouldn't be to kill the entity (that would be a plot level artifact or ritual whose sole purpose would be "godslayer" or whatever), but filling up the stress would mean that you won the conflict/challenge.

I just assume that if I can think it, the god can do it.  As long as I think it fits with the god's description. 

I also kind of like the idea of a FAE style approach to skills, rather than stating every ability out.

[Sanctaphrax]

I can see the appeal in simplified character stats, but why do that for gods and not for normal people? A similar list of challenge ratings/approaches could work for just about anyone.

The problem with the "if I can think it" approach is that gods definitely have limits. IIRC, keeping Harry alive was actually hard for Mab. And obviously they can't casually kill each other.

[vultur]

Or possibly along simpler lines. Gods don't necessarily have to be characters, mechanically speaking. Maybe just a set of Aspects and a Miraculous Power rating...

Yeah, that sounds good, I think. The thing is that e.g. Mother Winter or Ferrovax's exact skill ratings or whether their Toughness is Mythic or Mythic+Divinex5 is only relevant if you've gotten them into one of those situations where they can actually be challenged by a mortal.

But everything should have Aspects, definitely, and a Miraculous Power rating to compare them to other uberpowerful beings makes sense.

is it appropriate for a god to need to send out its avatar for social or knowledge stuff?

At least for dealings in the mortal world, I think most use avatars or "whispered presence" projections for pretty much everything, at least for the upper tiers of power. There's WoJs about how they damage the mortal world if they're here too fully, and also that it makes them vulnerable, and that Odin is unusual for being totally cool with that vulnerability. (and maybe that explains what I was wondering about Odin's power level... he's just in the "can actually be meaningfully challenged by powerful mortals" mode most of the time, while for others it's a rare exception).

Though that may be more for the upper-upper-tier types; Mab is able to hang around the mortal world for quite a while in GS, and while it leads to freaky weather, the world doesn't break or anything.

---

I think I might write up "if they're in a position to actually be defeated" for a couple of high-power beings... He-Who-Walks-Before we actually saw in combat. I could do Mab, though it'd be very similar to my Lea stats (did I ever post those, btw? Beyond the crappy version I made back in like 2010 when I was just learning DFRPG).

[InFerrumVeritas]

I can see the appeal in simplified character stats, but why do that for gods and not for normal people? A similar list of challenge ratings/approaches could work for just about anyone.

The problem with the "if I can think it" approach is that gods definitely have limits. IIRC, keeping Harry alive was actually hard for Mab. And obviously they can't casually kill each other.

Simple: Gods can do so much that trying to stat it all leads to massive stat blocks and spends a lot of my not gaming time.  Normal characters I can usually whip up pretty quickly (although I still use their effective skill level as a guide to how much of a challenge they can be). 

RE: If I can think it.  That's fair.  Perhaps just list things that are within their scope of power, gray areas, and things they can't do.

[S1C0]

I though Mab had trouble keeping Harry alive because she is winter, and winter is not pro-life for thaumaturgy.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think I might write up "if they're in a position to actually be defeated" for a couple of high-power beings... He-Who-Walks-Before we actually saw in combat. I could do Mab, though it'd be very similar to my Lea stats (did I ever post those, btw? Beyond the crappy version I made back in like 2010 when I was just learning DFRPG).

Far as I know the only Lea you posted is the 2010 one in Deadmanwalking's canon stat thread.

I vaguely remember liking those stats when I first saw them, but now they look a bit uninspired. I guess my standards have gone up.

Thinking over the avatar approach a bit more, I think it'd be best to stat gods up as characters with the traits that they have when vulnerable...but with a Power that basically says "this is not my true form". That way everything fits together tidily, mechanically speaking.

Simple: Gods can do so much that trying to stat it all leads to massive stat blocks and spends a lot of my not gaming time.  Normal characters I can usually whip up pretty quickly (although I still use their effective skill level as a guide to how much of a challenge they can be).

Didn't think of that. Makes sense.

[Sanctaphrax]

For consequences, I'm thinking maybe we could modify their value by 50% for each point of skill cap modification.

So with a Good skill cap, you've got 1/2/3/4 consequences. Nearly worthless...maybe too harsh.

With a Fantastic skill cap, you've got 3/6/9/12 consequences. Sounds about right.

With an Epic skill cap, you've got 4/8/12/16 consequences. Pretty ridiculous with Recovery and extra milds, but...if you have an Epic skill cap, ridiculous is standard.

And with a Legendary skill cap, you've got 5/10/15/20 consequences. Dunno if that's appropriate, but I don't see an obvious problem with it.

Sound reasonable?

That makes god fights much less rocket-taggy. But gods will still be taking consequences with almost every hit from another god or a Knight of the Cross. Maybe I should keep some form of Divine Toughness.

Here's my new list of planned Musts for gods:

A God Am I [-7]
Miracles [-12]
Divine Domain [-7]
Demesne [-1]
Marked By Power [-1]
No Metabolism [-1]
Ghost Speaker [-1]
Aura Of Influence [-0]
Dual Nature [-0]
Undying [-0]

And here's a A God Am I.

A GOD AM I [-7?]
Description: You're a god! Holy crap!
Musts: You must have the Demesne, Miracles, and Divine Domain Powers to take this one.
Skills Affected: Many.
Effects:
Godbody. You don't have a body. You are a part of the universe's structure, not a singular entity. As such, you are immune to all forms of attack. You may interact with the physical universe only through your Miracles Power, which may affect anything within your Demesne and anything you can perceive with your Divine Domain.
Avatar. You may assume a physical body in order to interact with the physical universe. This cancels out the Godbody trapping of this Power and makes you vulnerable to attack, but lets you take actions like a normal character. Under some circumstances you may be forced to use this effect. Exactly which circumstances qualify depends on who you are, but Halloween, being attacked by a fellow god, and being challenged by a Knight of the Cross all qualify for pretty much everyone.

Okay, that's not ideal. But it's a start. Suggestions would be appreciated.

PS: I've been thinking...a scale chart to go along with the time chart would be handy for Thaumaturgy. When it comes to something like smiting a city or turning an entire family into monsters, counting zones just isn't a good way to determine complexity. I'm thinking the steps could be...

A single target
A zone/two people
A zone and every adjacent zone/ten people
A small building/thirty people
A couple of big buildings/a hundred people
A city block/three hundred people
A neighbourhood/a thousand people
A kilometre or so in every direction/three thousand people
A town/ten thousand people
A city/thirty thousand people
A big city/one hundred thousand people

and each step up the chart would cost 2 shifts.

It's intentional that targeting by area can hit more people than targeting by, say, bloodline. But even targeting people rather than places with large-scale thaumaturgy shouldn't be too precise.

Setting a neighbourhood on fire with this system would probably cost around 17 shifts. 5 for the effect and 12 for the scale. That sounds reasonable-ish, but maybe a bit too easy. 17 is supposed to be a lot, but it's pretty manageable.

Setting a big city on fire would be 25 shifts, then. That's almost certainly too easy. Maybe the chart scales too hard near the end.

Anyway, thoughts?

[vultur]

I agree there needs to be a better scale system for thaumaturgy than "X zones". Eb can do city- to regional-scale effects, and he's not a plot-device-level god.

But it needs to go along with an actual limit on what you can get Complexity-wise from Declarations, so that your average sorcerer can't blow up cities just by spending enough time prepping.

[vultur]

Far as I know the only Lea you posted is the 2010 one in Deadmanwalking's canon stat thread.

I vaguely remember liking those stats when I first saw them, but now they look a bit uninspired. I guess my standards have gone up.

Yeah, those are the old (not vey good) stats I was referring to. I even gave her the ability to soulgaze for some reason (actually because I just gave her everything the Wizard template had  )

What thread should I post my new version in? The same one?

Thinking over the avatar approach a bit more, I think it'd be best to stat gods up as characters with the traits that they have when vulnerable...but with a Power that basically says "this is not my true form". That way everything fits together tidily, mechanically speaking.

Maybe... but it's not something that they can actually use as a power, at least most of the time.

I don't really think avatar (at least in the D&D inspired sense of the word), nor the Godbody effect of A God Am I, is an accurate representation  of what's going on. It's the same being, not a separate body that they split off. Mab doesn't exist in some bodiless state most of the time and just sometimes manifest a humanoid body to walk around in; at least we've never seen anything to suggest that. I think at least god-like beings that are "mantle based" with an original creature under it ... however transformed .... really do have a body all the time. (Angels/archangels/fallen angels may be different being "all soul" ... maybe, we really don't know).

[Sanctaphrax]

I agree there needs to be a better scale system for thaumaturgy than "X zones". Eb can do city- to regional-scale effects, and he's not a plot-device-level god.

But it needs to go along with an actual limit on what you can get Complexity-wise from Declarations, so that your average sorcerer can't blow up cities just by spending enough time prepping.

Hey, one problem at a time. There are solutions for that, but they're not related to this.

Yeah, those are the old (not vey good) stats I was referring to. I even gave her the ability to soulgaze for some reason (actually because I just gave her everything the Wizard template had  )

What thread should I post my new version in? The same one?

Seems like a good place for it to me.

Maybe... but it's not something that they can actually use as a power, at least most of the time.

I don't really think avatar (at least in the D&D inspired sense of the word), nor the Godbody effect of A God Am I, is an accurate representation  of what's going on. It's the same being, not a separate body that they split off. Mab doesn't exist in some bodiless state most of the time and just sometimes manifest a humanoid body to walk around in; at least we've never seen anything to suggest that. I think at least god-like beings that are "mantle based" with an original creature under it ... however transformed .... really do have a body all the time. (Angels/archangels/fallen angels may be different being "all soul" ... maybe, we really don't know).

So you think Mab has a body in her Demesne, but is all-powerful there?

Plausible, I guess.

Is there any WoJ on this? I can write up gods either as bodiless forces that occasionally incarnate or as material beings that occasionally leave their domains, but not as both. And I'm not really sure which one to go with here.

[vultur]

So you think Mab has a body in her Demesne, but is all-powerful there?

Well, not all-powerful. (EDIT: Just to the point that mortals, even say the Merlin, might as well not try. Mother Summer or Winter could still slap her down.)

And I don't think it's actually purely based on being in a place of power, though that's important. The place of power = I'm stronger thing seems to apply to powerful-but-more-fightable entities like naagloshii and the Lords of Outer Night, too (and arguably Harry, now, though probably not the same mechanism).

Being in the mortal world does per WoJ make them more vulnerable... but that's slightly different.

Is there any WoJ on this? I can write up gods either as bodiless forces that occasionally incarnate or as material beings that occasionally leave their domains, but not as both. And I'm not really sure which one to go with here.

Not as far as I know. I just don't see any evidence/mention that they ever are bodiless. (Though that's kind of an elusive concept if you're in the Nevernever anyway... even pure spirits and ghosts and stuff seem to be physically-interactable there ... and Bob has a sort of very limited 'body' even in the mortal world when he leaves the skull...)

[Taran]

What if the mortal world works as a threshold on their powers?

So, you could stat 'em all up, then apply a threshold based on how "alien" they are from the mortal world.  Or maybe that doesn't even matter...maybe it's just he same threshold across the board.

Things like physical immunity etc would be some of the first powers to go. 

Tapping into the powers they've left behind requires them to reduce the threshold between reality which is why it mucks up with things when God-like entities spend too much time in the mortal realm.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more I like it.

If you look at the things that lower a threshold (usually Lawbreaker stuff - but not always).  Every time a god(ling) does things like that in the mortal world, It breaks down the natural threshold of the mortal realm.  This is why Mab can't kill mortals and all that kind of stuff and needs Knights to do her dirty work.