Stats For Gods

[potestas]

Gods need one other thing.

Believers.

Metaphysically speaking gods and tulpas are created from the thought and belief of those who see need for them, fear them, revere them, and/or worship them.

This should be tied into their power level.

Why don't Outsiders need believers? 

1) Maybe they have believers.
2) Maybe they are so foreign to us that is yet another rule they break.

I've never seen gods as needing worshippers...humans worship them because they are gods. They may be able to focus that belief into more power the same way a wizard focuses his belief into his magic. The fact they still exist proves that despite the fact no one worships them. Don't look at the gods as people with power, but as eternal concepts. the power of the god resides in his concept/ Ares isn't the god of war, he is war. Where there is war there is Ares. No one really likes war, so no one really worshipped Ares. They feared him made offerings to ward him off. Prayed to other gods to make him go away.

We trivialize the gods by claiming they only exist because we believe in them. (in essence we make ourselves god by doing this) That is not the way people who believed in the gods thought, that is 20th century man making a mockery of the belief of the ancients because the gods just cant exist. In the Dresden world the ancients are laughing at 2oth century man.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think worship is the only way it can happen, but I'm pretty sure the gods draw their power from mortals. Almost everything else in the Dresdenverse does.

That's what the fey have that stone table for.

That's cool stuff.

But honestly, I don't think you really need all these new Powers. (Sorry.)

...

I think some of that is a difference in our approaches to the rules though. I prefer to use canon powers when at all possible, and use custom powers only for genuinely new effects

(click to show/hide)

(except for Demonic Co-Pilot which is just bad ... although Feeding Dependency may be joining that list).

Thus I prefer The Catch to Limitation, I prefer to use Physical Immunity costing rather than Immunity costing for most situations, etc.

You don't need to apologize.

And yes, it's a difference of approach. I'm pickier than you are, when it comes to balance. And I suspect that you're less enthusiastic/comfortable about replacing rules than I am.

(You should add Feeding Dependency to that list.)

I have a pretty full writeup of Lea somewhere, and I've been doing some rough working out in my head for how I think Mab would look, and I don't think she really needs any new powers except a "Domain" power... and your Divine Domain looks good for that.

I vaguely recall liking your take on Lea. But I think Mab definitely needs new powers. Here's why:

Mab is capable of defeating the entire White Council single-handedly. And there is no level of Toughness that will let you tank hundreds of death curses or thousands of evocation attacks. Legendary skills and Mythic powers across the board would be laughably insufficient if the whole Senior Council started blasting you.

So she needs a custom Power. Either Immunity or some new level of Toughness. I went for Immunity because I didn't want to deal with the massive numerical inflation that her Toughness would require. Plus I already had Immunity written.

But that would make her immune to other gods. So she needs some way of being harmed by them. I'd rather have the methods of harming her be on the character sheets of opposing gods rather than on her character sheet, so I went with ACaEBM.

That method also has the advantage of making gods more effective against mortals...I think gods should be able to casually kill mortals no matter how tough they are, and I'd rather not raise their numbers to the twenties to represent that. Plus I already had ACaEBM written.

Divine Toughness follows in a fairly obvious fashion.

There are other ways to do this (for example, I could give her Immunity to everything except the attacks of gods and Mythic+ Toughness/Recovery) but I like this method best.

As for Miracles, well...it's basically just spellcasting without the drawbacks. No item dependence, no mental stress, no need for three different skills. Spellcasting has a lot of trappings built-in, and most of them aren't appropriate for gods. Removing them one by one would have been a hassle, and this seemed easier.

(The skill number is the most important issue, by the way. I don't want every god to have the same three apex skills.)

Sound reasonable? If not, what do you think I should change?

And just out of curiosity, what's your beef with ACaEBM?

(There are broader questions about gods' power in the NN vs mortal world and how that should be modeled in the game, but those issues aren't unique to gods -- same would apply to any 'ectoplasm body' demon/spirit/summoned creature, though for slightly different reasons.)

Yeah, the Nevernever in general is confusing like that.

DOUBLE EDIT: I also think that gods in the Dresdenverse tend to retain their "normal" weaknesses, at least if they come from a "type" that has them (Mab flinches from iron, and Jim has said that an ordinary mortal at least theoretically could kill her under the right conditions -- a chance e.g. the Erlking wouldn't). There's also a WoJ that when those cosmic beings enter the mortal world, they become somewhat vulnerable themselves.  So immunity to mortals is I think too much -- it's just that their power and awareness are so great that it's really unlikely for anybody without comparable power to get into a position to harm them.

I'd rather handle that with Aspects.

I mean, hypothetically a mortal could wound Mab with iron. But in practice, attacking her is pointless because she'll defend against everything casually. Unless there's something plot-ish going on.

So when her weaknesses come into play, she can just get Compelled.

[vultur]

I don't think worship is the only way it can happen, but I'm pretty sure the gods draw their power from mortals. Almost everything else in the Dresdenverse does.

In a very broad sense, there is certainly evidence that the Nevernever and magic in general derive from or are powered by mortal life/emotions/etc. (Though possibly not just humans - the description of the Faerie Queens' power as "older than time" is probably poetic but still seems to me to imply pre-human origins. They may draw power from mortal "life" in general.)

But I don't think they actually need worship. And even if mortals completely forget them, I think they remain, unharmed, in the Nevernever... they just can't enter or affect the mortal world. If the Earth or terrestrial life was completely destroyed, though, they might fade.

Mab is capable of defeating the entire White Council single-handedly. And there is no level of Toughness that will let you tank hundreds of death curses or thousands of evocation attacks.

If Mab faced the White Council across a battlefield... her defenses would be irrelevant, because she would blast them to ice shards before they got to act (wizards don't get Mythic or even Supernatural Speed).

However...

So she needs a custom Power. Either Immunity or some new level of Toughness. I went for Immunity because I didn't want to deal with the massive numerical inflation that her Toughness would require. Plus I already had Immunity written.

But that would make her immune to other gods. So she needs some way of being harmed by them.

I'd just make that part of her Catch.

She'd then have magical defenses to make the Merlin look like a chump... and only then Mythic Toughness and Recovery, as the final layer.

That method also has the advantage of making gods more effective against mortals...I think gods should be able to casually kill mortals no matter how tough they are, and I'd rather not raise their numbers to the twenties to represent that.

Depends on where you put the top end of "mortal" for these purposes ... and what you're defining as gods. I can totally see Murphy dodging a blow from Odin or the Erlking, or current-Harry blocking one... though they couldn't keep it up for very long at all.

There are other ways to do this (for example, I could give her Immunity to everything except the attacks of gods and Mythic+ Toughness/Recovery)

That's more or less what I'd do. Well, Catch: "iron, Summer Magic and trappings of Summer, the Winter Knight, and beings of comparable or better power". Something like that.

(The skill number is the most important issue, by the way. I don't want every god to have the same three apex skills.)

Hmmm. Conviction and Discipline are more or less 'force of will' kind of things. I think most beings who are really powerful in the spirit world should have really high ranks in those skills. And any supernatural-world-only being that old should probably have massive Lore. So... I actually think it kind of fits.

Maybe not the apex skills, anyway, they can make up for that with massive Refinement since they have negative refresh anyway.

(In any case, gods will probably have effectively infinite Sponsor Debt availability since they're probably just compelling based on their own natures... and they can't refuse compels anyway, having negative refresh... and there refresh ill be so negative they'd never realistically get fate points for accepted non-debt compels.)

And just out of curiosity, what's your beef with ACaEBM?

Mostly that I don't think it should be generally available even at the Mab-level, the Swords are supposed to be something special IMO even up to that level.

It would be a perfect Power for Mother Winter, though.

[Sanctaphrax]

If Mab faced the White Council across a battlefield... her defenses would be irrelevant, because she would blast them to ice shards before they got to act (wizards don't get Mythic or even Supernatural Speed).

They could get Speed through magic, they have death curses, and she'd likely have trouble wiping out that many wizards in one go.

Rocket launcher tag is best avoided.

I'd just make that part of her Catch.

She'd then have magical defenses to make the Merlin look like a chump... and only then Mythic Toughness and Recovery, as the final layer.

...

That's more or less what I'd do. Well, Catch: "iron, Summer Magic and trappings of Summer, the Winter Knight, and beings of comparable or better power". Something like that.

Whoa, no. That's way too broad. She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail.

The general approach is defensible, though. I decided against it because

a) using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?
b) If a being has enough power to punch through Immunity, that power should be on their character sheet somewhere (for both flavour and balance reasons).
c) I don't think mortals with Toughness or Immunity should get very far against gods.

Anyway, I'm not completely married to the approach I'm going with. So feel free to try and convince me. What you've posted so far hasn't brought me around, but with further development and support maybe it could.

And if I don't change the basic approach, are there any tweaks you'd recommend?

Hmmm. Conviction and Discipline are more or less 'force of will' kind of things. I think most beings who are really powerful in the spirit world should have really high ranks in those skills. And any supernatural-world-only being that old should probably have massive Lore. So... I actually think it kind of fits.

Not really. Plenty of gods have lousy Discipline, judging by their actions. And I think the "massive divine Lore" is mostly covered by Divine Domain.

The main reason, though, is to keep things from getting same-y. If Thoth has Legendary Lore and Zeus does too, it kind of defeats the purpose of giving different gods different character sheets.

Having one skill (Conviction) that's always up near the cap is enough.

Mostly that I don't think it should be generally available even at the Mab-level, the Swords are supposed to be something special IMO even up to that level.

It would be a perfect Power for Mother Winter, though.

So it's not so much the Power that bothers you, as the idea of giving it out to a large number of beings?

[narphoenix]

Yeah. Zeus's Discipline would start at Poor (-1) and only get worse from there.

[g33k]

RE "Stats for Gods" --

I am against it!  The old gaming maxim is true:  if you Stat it, the players will kill it.

Even so... it's an irresistably fun exercise!   

===

RE "Mab vs. the White Council" -- 

1. This is a "Plot-Device 'A' vs Plot-Device 'B'" situation.  The "winner" is clearly... well, whoever the GM wants the winner to be!   

2. I think the crack y'all are smokin' done got contaminated with peyote or sumthin... What EVER gave you the idea that Mab would face the Council in anything like a "battlefield" situation???!?  Mab-level entities are the creatures from whom wizards are copying (in a very inferior fashion!) the "subtle and quick to anger" schtick... especially SUBTLE.  Why on God's Green^H^H^H^H^HWhite Earth would Mab ever find herself facing "the entire White Council" in open battle?!

3. I probably come down on the "Mab Wins" side of things, in the "not gonna happen" case of an "open battle:"  Mab has already suborned a bunch of the WCouncil, who backstab the important ones she COULDN'T suborn, while Mab drops a zero-visibility blizzard on the poor humans, Veils and Glamours the shit out of everything, unleashes a bunch of Malks and and then turns anyone left alive into a wizardcicle.

I mean, c'mon:  she's Mab.  She won't do "open battle" unless it's some Summer-vs-Winter event where the nature of reality demands the "open battle" format.

My .02 on THAT.


@narphoenix RE "Zeus's Discipline" -- ROFLMAO!

@Sanctaphrax:

"She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail."
Picking up a nail is trivial.  Getting the nail in your hand anywhere dangerous to Mab is NOT trivial.

"using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?"
I rather think that the Mothers make their daughters look like simpletons; they play the deep game so deeply, their contingencies have contingencies so many ply thick, they interlace so many disparate elements, they cast their webs so widely, that the Mothers' plans are literally the fabric of daily life for most mortal wizards (and other powers, e.g. nobles of the Vampire Courts, etc), who live their whole lives without ever noting or knowing that they've been threads in the Mothers' tapestries.  What do they need Speed or Toughness or any other combat-relevant stat for, whether Mythic or something else?  I mean, I don't doubt they ARE physically daunting in combat, if they wanted to fight, but... why?

RE ACaEBM:
Have we seen anything in the DF stories showing the Sword-like ability put into the rules as "ACaE..."?  Off the top of my head, I'm not recalling any.  I know it has become something done in the DFRPG... but I'm not at all clear that this is "correct".   This maybe should be something reserved to the Swords alone...  Entirely willing to be shown the story where I'm wrong!
 

[Sanctaphrax]

RE "Stats for Gods" --

I am against it!  The old gaming maxim is true:  if you Stat it, the players will kill it.

Rubbish. I've statted loads of characters that my players haven't killed.

Sometimes because they never tried, sometimes because they never could.

RE "Mab vs. the White Council" -- 

1. This is a "Plot-Device 'A' vs Plot-Device 'B'" situation.  The "winner" is clearly... well, whoever the GM wants the winner to be!   

2. I think the crack y'all are smokin' done got contaminated with peyote or sumthin... What EVER gave you the idea that Mab would face the Council in anything like a "battlefield" situation???!?  Mab-level entities are the creatures from whom wizards are copying (in a very inferior fashion!) the "subtle and quick to anger" schtick... especially SUBTLE.  Why on God's Green^H^H^H^H^HWhite Earth would Mab ever find herself facing "the entire White Council" in open battle?!

3. I probably come down on the "Mab Wins" side of things, in the "not gonna happen" case of an "open battle:"  Mab has already suborned a bunch of the WCouncil, who backstab the important ones she COULDN'T suborn, while Mab drops a zero-visibility blizzard on the poor humans, Veils and Glamours the shit out of everything, unleashes a bunch of Malks and and then turns anyone left alive into a wizardcicle.

I mean, c'mon:  she's Mab.  She won't do "open battle" unless it's some Summer-vs-Winter event where the nature of reality demands the "open battle" format.

My .02 on THAT.

Doesn't matter.

The statements from the books says that Mab-level entities could overwhelm the Council with sheer power. So their stats, in order to be accurate, must allow them to win such a fight without clever planning.

"She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail."
Picking up a nail is trivial.  Getting the nail in your hand anywhere dangerous to Mab is NOT trivial.

Yes, exactly. That's my point.

"using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?"
I rather think that the Mothers make their daughters look like simpletons; they play the deep game so deeply, their contingencies have contingencies so many ply thick, they interlace so many disparate elements, they cast their webs so widely, that the Mothers' plans are literally the fabric of daily life for most mortal wizards (and other powers, e.g. nobles of the Vampire Courts, etc), who live their whole lives without ever noting or knowing that they've been threads in the Mothers' tapestries.  What do they need Speed or Toughness or any other combat-relevant stat for, whether Mythic or something else?  I mean, I don't doubt they ARE physically daunting in combat, if they wanted to fight, but... why?

Because they fight. We see a brief battle between Harry and Mother Winter in Cold Days. (Harry wins).

It's not much a fight and she's not trying that hard, but it's a conflict and if you want to run that kind of thing you need rules.

Of course, if you interpret the Mothers primarily as schemers then you might need scheming mechanics. But I don't really see them that way.

RE ACaEBM:
Have we seen anything in the DF stories showing the Sword-like ability put into the rules as "ACaE..."?  Off the top of my head, I'm not recalling any.  I know it has become something done in the DFRPG... but I'm not at all clear that this is "correct".   This maybe should be something reserved to the Swords alone...  Entirely willing to be shown the story where I'm wrong!

I don't think ACaEBG shows up in the stories at all. I don't think the Swords even have it, given their performance against Nicodemus.

Though...Mouse scares Nick. So he (and the rest of his species) might have it. OW gives them Sacred Guardian instead, but that Power is terrible.

PS: Originally ACeBM was devised to represent the abilities of the Siberian from the Worm-verse. Which isn't very DFRPG-ish at all.
PPS: It just occurred to me that the Immunity/Divine Toughness model has a side benefit: it prevents a Knight of the Cross from casually maiming Mab, while letting them hurt her.

[vultur]

The Swords -- remember, Michael killed a Dragon, probably a Mab-level entity. And they do remove supernatural protections and level the playing field. I think ACAEBG is a decent representation... though, in Changes we actually see them impairing the Red Court army facing Murphy, so really they should lower things like Strength and Speed powers too...

They could get Speed through magic, they have death curses, and she'd likely have trouble wiping out that many wizards in one go.

Rocket launcher tag is best avoided.

I think it's sort of inevitable at this power level, though.  Mab probably IS able to destroy armies near-instantly if she really throws down, given the WoJs about Arctis Tor in PG and how a fight with her against the Erlking, Wild Hunt, Denarians, etc. would go.

Death curses are going to just bounce off her immunity anyway.

Sponsor debt is basically free (or, at least, fairly trivial) for Mab, so, yeah, she can do a 10 zone control 20 power 20 attack spell, or something ridiculous like that, if she really needs to. How many times is she going to have to fight the whole White Council anyway?

Whoa, no. That's way too broad. She'd never actually get to use her immunity if bypassing it was as trivial as picking up a nail.

Yep. Being Fae sucks sometimes.

How else could Murphy or even Butters theoretically be able to kill her (very low chances, but not zero, per WoJ)?

And I actually think what I said above is too broad. I'd have to give it more thought.

a) using Mythics doesn't provide enough scalability...if Mab has Mythics, what does her mom have?

That IS a good point. Though I am still skeptical that the Mothers are really meaningfully stattable. They mostly don't do anything, but theoretically have cosmic power on a level that is just insane.

I am of course very interested in seeing what you come up with for Mother Winter, though...

c) I don't think mortals with Toughness or Immunity should get very far against gods.

Well, they won't anyway. Mab can probably overpower Toughness just by dealing way more damage.

Immunity, yeah, if she's facing Nic Mab may actually have to do something other than just throw lots of power at him. (That fight still lasts less than a second, because she can still flatten him to the ground with a completely unbeatable Block, even if she doesn't know his weakness, which she probably does.)

[Sanctaphrax]

The Swords -- remember, Michael killed a Dragon, probably a Mab-level entity. And they do remove supernatural protections and level the playing field. I think ACAEBG is a decent representation... though, in Changes we actually see them impairing the Red Court army facing Murphy, so really they should lower things like Strength and Speed powers too...

The swords in the novels don't work the same as the swords in the game. C'est la vie.

Anyway, I think the Swords should be able to kill gods. But it shouldn't be easy. And if Mab has no toughness against the Sword...assuming a base attack skill of Fantastic and a weapon rating of 5 against a Legendary defence skill, one fate point is enough to put a consequence on Mab.

I think it's sort of inevitable at this power level, though.

No way. We decide the numbers gods get for attack and defence, we decide whether their fights are rocket-tag-y. 

Death curses are going to just bounce off her immunity anyway.

The way I wrote it, yeah. The way you wrote it, not at all.

The way you wrote it, Mab could be killed by the death curses of like three random Wardens. And Eldest Gruff could one-shot her.

Sponsor debt is basically free (or, at least, fairly trivial) for Mab, so, yeah, she can do a 10 zone control 20 power 20 attack spell, or something ridiculous like that, if she really needs to.

I don't know whether such an attack would suffice.

How else could Murphy or even Butters theoretically be able to kill her (very low chances, but not zero, per WoJ)?

Compels. The all purpose tool for situations where something ridiculous has to happen because the plot demands it.

That IS a good point. Though I am still skeptical that the Mothers are really meaningfully stattable. They mostly don't do anything, but theoretically have cosmic power on a level that is just insane.

I am of course very interested in seeing what you come up with for Mother Winter, though...

Mostly, I plan to put a lot of points into Miraculous Power and Divine Toughness. They're uncapped for a reason. And since Miracles works off of spellcasting, it covers massive cosmic power pretty well...200 shift rituals are not so difficult, if you have a base miraculous power of 20.

Plus they'll have Intellectus.

The interesting bits will be the social skills, I think. Socially, gods are not so ridiculously far above mortals. I'm thinking I'll give Mother Winter a bunch of Intimidation.

Well, they won't anyway. Mab can probably overpower Toughness just by dealing way more damage.

Not without heavy numerical inflation. A 15-shift evocation hitting a Mythically Tough character with Superb defences, or a Supernaturally Tough character with Legendary defences, or whatever, can be soaked with a few FP and consequences.

And like I've been saying, I'd like to keep the numbers sane-ish. For a variety of reasons, including preserving the usefulness of weapon attacks by gods and giving people like Knights a chance to survive an attack or two.

Though even with my attempts to keep the numbers sensible, the Mothers will be rocking ridiculously inflated stats.

PS: I've been considering a custom Power or a power level rule that increases the value of a god's consequences. 2 shifts for a mild seems trivial, when the numbers are this big. Any thoughts on that?

[InFerrumVeritas]

The swords in the novels don't work the same as the swords in the game. C'est la vie.

Anyway, I think the Swords should be able to kill gods. But it shouldn't be easy. And if Mab has no toughness against the Sword...assuming a base attack skill of Fantastic and a weapon rating of 5 against a Legendary defence skill, one fate point is enough to put a consequence on Mab.

Swords have a weapon rating of 3...  So two fate points.  One for ACEBG and one for the +2.  And even then, that's probably just stress.  So three fate points or one FP and a really good roll.

[Hick Jr]

I like it. I like it a lot. My one quibble would be that Miraculous Power might be overpriced by one Refresh, though. Otherwise id be overjoyed to use this in a game. Probably for Ozmadiel, because Miracles pretty well represents what I think the angelic version of spell casting would be.


EDIT: Actually, would you want to run some kind of one-shot to play test these rules?

[narphoenix]

I like it. I like it a lot. My one quibble would be that Miraculous Power might be overpriced by one Refresh, though. Otherwise id be overjoyed to use this in a game. Probably for Ozmadiel, because Miracles pretty well represents what I think the angelic version of spell casting would be.


EDIT: Actually, would you want to run some kind of one-shot to play test these rules?

These aren't exactly PC powers, Hick.

[Hick Jr]

These aren't exactly PC powers, Hick.

Do I need to sig "power hungry megalomaniac"?

Also, playtesting is important no matter the power level! You wouldn't want to try and have Pestilence (the Horseman) fight Freyja and then it turns out whoever bought the most Divine Toughness wins.

[narphoenix]

Do I need to sig "power hungry megalomaniac"?

No. We're all aware of it. But being a power hungry megalomaniac can deter from the /real/ purpose of the game: making the PCs suffer as much as possible.

Also, playtesting is important no matter the power level! You wouldn't want to try and have Pestilence (the Horseman) fight Freyja and then it turns out whoever bought the most Divine Toughness wins.

In that theoretical throwdown (that would never happen because the two of them have too much power to throw around) I'd say Pestilence has the upper hand because of skills. Freyja has to spend skill points on Rapport because she's a seductive vixen. That said, it's very probable neither of them will throw down.

[Sanctaphrax]

Swords have a weapon rating of 3...  So two fate points.  One for ACEBG and one for the +2.  And even then, that's probably just stress.  So three fate points or one FP and a really good roll.

I was assuming the Knight would have a stunt.

I like it. I like it a lot. My one quibble would be that Miraculous Power might be overpriced by one Refresh, though. Otherwise id be overjoyed to use this in a game. Probably for Ozmadiel, because Miracles pretty well represents what I think the angelic version of spell casting would be.


EDIT: Actually, would you want to run some kind of one-shot to play test these rules?

Maybe. I have a fair bit on my plate right now, but perhaps I'll have time later.

I'd recommend against using these as-is, though. Power level aside, I think they might make your character mesh poorly with a group of normal characters. And there are some bits which might just be generally wonky.

I'll consider lowering the cost of Miraculous Power.