Stats For Gods

[Sanctaphrax]

If it was off-screen, then he might not have been casting spells at all. Odin's well-known for using a spear, after all.

[vultur]

Harry can take Sponsor Debt with ridiculous ease starting in Dead Beat. Of course he can keep going longer.

Yeah, but Ramirez does it too -- in WN, he casts an awful lot of those green disintegration rays, plus his weird entropy shield...

(BTW, is that a D&D reference? The D&D disintegrate spell produces a green ray...)

[narphoenix]

Yeah, but Ramirez does it too -- in WN, he casts an awful lot of those green disintegration rays, plus his weird entropy shield...

(BTW, is that a D&D reference? The D&D disintegrate spell produces a green ray...)

His disintegration rays can easily be modeled as a zone wide spell.

And knowing Jim, maybe. 

[vultur]

Anyway, Odin seems to be using his spear as a focus item to open the lightning-gate, so I think his ability is "regular" (if extremely powerful/refined) spellcasting.

His training Merlin may also be evidence in that direction.

[vultur]

The Red King actually uses his will to knock physical holes in the wall. So rather than being a mental Incite Emotion attack, I really do think it's mechanically closest to spirit (force) evocation... the 'air barrier' bit is pretty similar to Harry's shield. Etc.

There seems to be an in-world distinction, but that doesn't necessarily translate to a mechanical one.

OK, spellcasting version of the LoON.

High Concept: Lord of Outer Night
Other Aspects: Remnants of Divinity; Arrogant; Crushing Will

Skills
Epic (+7): Conviction
Fantastic (+6): Intimidation, Lore
Superb (+5): Discipline, Fists
Great (+4): Alertness, Contacts, Endurance, Presence
Good (+3): Athletics, Deceit, Rapport, Weapons
Fair (+2): Empathy, Might, Survival, Stealth, Scholarship
Other skills default to Average.

Stunts
Fear Is Leadership (Intimidation): Use Intimidation instead of Presence to coordinate a group
Rule with Fear (Intimidation): Use Intimidation instead of Presence for reputation
Red Court Contacts (Contacts): +2 to Contacts among the Red Court and allies (such as certain ghoul clans and mortal criminal organizations)

Powers
Addictive Saliva [-1]
Blood Drinker [-1]
Claws [-1]
Demesne [-1]
Flesh Mask [-1]
Material Demesne [-1] (Chichen Itza)

Evocation [-3]
Refinement [-3]
Sponsored Magic (Place of Power: Chichen Itza) [-1]
Thaumaturgy [-3]

Feeding Dependency [+1] affecting:
    Cloak of Shadows [-1]
    Supernatural Speed [-4]
    Supernatural Strength [-4]
    Mythic Recovery [-6]
    Mythic Toughness [-6]
        The Catch [+2]: holy stuff; belly doesn't benefit from Armor. Sunlight may have some effect, but is unreliable against vampires this powerful.

Specializations
Evocation - Elements (Earth, Spirit, Water); Control: Spirit +3, Water +2. Power: Spirit +1.
Thaumaturgy – Complexity: Transformation & Disruption +1. Control: Transformation & Disruption +1.

Focus Items
Ring: +1 to Offensive Spirit Power and Control
Ritual Mask: +1 to Complexity and Control with Transformation & Disruption

Rotes
Crushing Will: 9 shift spirit offensive block
Red Rays: 9 shift spirit attack, Weapon:9, used as a spray attack split among up to three targets

Stress
Hunger oooo +1 mild consequence
Mental oooo +1 mild consequence
Physical oooo(oooooo) Armor:3
Social oooo

Total Refresh Cost: -37

Notes:  The Chichen Itza Place of Power Sponsored Magic gives the evocation effects of water (effects tend to manifest as blood or entropy) and the thaumaturgic effects of transformation/disruption. The extra benefit is +1 control to transformation/disruption and an additional +1 complexity to any thaumaturgic spell using blood sacrifice (physical consequences) drawn from unwilling sacrifices.

Again, painfully far from optimized for this Refresh cost, but they need to be beatable by the Changes-level book characters...

EDIT: Evocation elements

[vultur]

Stat block contains CD spoilers.

(click to show/hide)

Name: Donar Vadderung / Kris Kringle / Odin
High Concept: Kris Kringle the Winter King
Other Aspects: CEO of Monoc Securities; “Mostly Retired” Lord of the Aesir; Thunder's Father; Warmth in a Cold Season; Skilled with Chronomancy

Skills
Epic: Discipline, Lore
Fantastic: Conviction, Presence, Resources, Weapons
Superb: Empathy, Endurance, Rapport, Scholarship
Great: Alertness, Athletics, Investigation, Might
Everything else defaults to Good.

Stunts
Leadership (Presence)
Military Resources (Resources): +2 to Resources when purchasing military gear - weapons, armor, combat vehicles etc.
Spearman (Weapons): +1 to Weapons attacks when using a spear

Powers
Demesne [-1]
Eye of Providence [-3]
Greater Glamours [-4]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Marked By Power [-1] (himself)
Material Demesne [-1]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
Mythic Recovery [-6]
     The Catch [+3]: iron

Evocation [-3]
Refinement [-27]  15 Thaumaturgy, 10 Evocation, 2 items
Thaumaturgy [-3]
Unseelie Magic [-2]

Specializations
Evocation: Elements (Air, Earth, Spirit); Control: Air +5, Earth +3, Spirit +1. Power: Air +6, Earth +4, Spirit +2.
Thaumaturgy: Complexity: Divination +7, Transportation & Worldwalking +5, Chronomancy +3, Wards +1. Control: Transportation & Worldwalking +6, Divination +4, Chronomancy +2. Frequency: Crafting +1. Strength: Crafting +2.

Focus Items
Spear: +3 offensive control with air
Spear: +1 complexity and control with transportation/worldwalking

Enchanted Items
Mail: 9 shift defensive block, 4 times/session (2 enchanted item slots)
4 “potion” (rune) slots

Total Refresh Cost: -61

EDIT: Evocation elements

[vultur]

OK, highly speculative here, but we have seen her more than any of the other beings of her power-level or above.

A few of the Aspects are straight from OW's entry on her (page 179), but others are changed due to more recent info. The super-high Contacts is also from OW.

All custom powers used except Aura of Influence are in these two posts by Sanctaphrax early in this thread.

High Concept: The Winter Queen of Air And Darkness
Other Aspects: "The Darkest Guardian"; Titania, My Sister, My Foe; Winter's Pity; Countless Minions; One Last Glimmer of Humanity?

In "plot device mode" only her Aspects and social abilities are truly relevant; she may be assumed to be immune to anything and capable of squashing mortals easily. Her Miraculous Power rating (6) can be used to define her power relative to other cosmic-level entities and gods.

When she is actually potentially vulnerable to mortal-level beings [it is Halloween night, the Stone Table Battlefield, or some other conjunction; a Sword of the Cross or similar effect is in play; etc.] her stats are as follows:

Skills
Legendary: Contacts, Conviction
Epic: Lore, Presence
Fantastic: Alertness, Discipline
Superb: Deceit, Resources
Great: Intimidation, Weapons
Good: Athletics, Endurance, Investigation
All other skills default to Fair

Stunts
Winter Contacts (Contacts): +2 to Contacts when dealing with Winter Fae
Honest Lies (Deceit)
The Weight of Reputation (Presence)
Leadership (Presence)
Winter Leadership (Presence): +2 to Presence when commanding a group of Winter Fae, stack with the bonus from Leadership

Powers
Aura of Influence [-0]
Demesne [-1] (Arctis Tor)
Divine Domain (Extra Benefits) [-8]
Greater Glamours [-4]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Marked By Power [-1] (herself)
Miracles [-12]
Miraculous Power (6) [-12]
Mythic Recovery [-6]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
    The Catch [+3]: cold iron, trappings of Summer
Undying [-0]

Stress
Mental oooo +2 mild consequences
Physical oooo(oooooo) Armor:3
Social oooo +2 mild consequences

Total Refresh Cost: -54

---


OK, after that exercise, I'm thinking Miraculous Power is too cheap.

Mab as statted here has automatic Control/Complexity/Power of 14 for everything, plus the advantages Miracles gives (everything's a Rote, "storing up" complexity, free complexity every day, thaum casting all in one exchange...), for 24 Refresh spent on it.

Odin, statted above, has Evocation Control 15/Power 12 with a focus item in his best element, and Thaum Complexity/Control of 15/12 with a focus item in his best specialty, and 12/13 in his second best... without the extra advantages... for 33 Refresh spent on spellcasting (35 Refresh if you count Unseelie Magic, but that just gives him entropomancy evothaum which isn't worth much, one-level-less Toughness against Summer, and ability to take sponsor debt on spells.)

But Miracles by itself doesn't seem too powerful IMO... it is really powerful, but 12 Refresh is a lot. It's really the non-pyramid nature of Miraculous Power vs the pyramid limitations of Refinement that makes the difference, IMO.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hm.

I don't have any specific complaints about these stats. They cover everything I can recall Mab doing and there's nothing there that seems off.

But still, I feel like maybe you're lowballing her. The PCs in EtA just took down a demon with 69 Refresh, so seeing Mab with only 54 seems underwhelming. She's comparatively slow, fragile, and inflexible...I get that this is her at her weakest, but she just seems too easy to kill.

I guess she just doesn't feel like a "plot device". She feels like something you can fight and kill with a little bit of planning.

OK, after that exercise, I'm thinking Miraculous Power is too cheap.

Mab as statted here has automatic Control/Complexity/Power of 14 for everything, plus the advantages Miracles gives (everything's a Rote, "storing up" complexity, free complexity every day, thaum casting all in one exchange...), for 24 Refresh spent on it.

Odin, statted above, has Evocation Control 15/Power 12 with a focus item in his best element, and Thaum Complexity/Control of 15/12 with a focus item in his best specialty, and 12/13 in his second best... without the extra advantages... for 33 Refresh spent on spellcasting (35 Refresh if you count Unseelie Magic, but that just gives him entropomancy evothaum which isn't worth much, one-level-less Toughness against Summer, and ability to take sponsor debt on spells.)

But Miracles by itself doesn't seem too powerful IMO... it is really powerful, but 12 Refresh is a lot. It's really the non-pyramid nature of Miraculous Power vs the pyramid limitations of Refinement that makes the difference, IMO.

I want to argue, but you're right. Spellcasting hits its ceiling before Miracles does. Mostly because Miracles has no ceiling.

Part of that is by design, since Miracles is for ridiculously overpowered beings and spellcasting isn't. And Odin's set-up is far from optimal. And Miracles is limited to one specialization field, while Odin has Refresh invested in all kinds of fields.

But still, it's not ideal. Any solution ideas?

Obviously it's not super-pressing, because pretty much nobody who needs to care about Refresh will ever use Miracles. But I like having appropriate costs for things.

[vultur]

Hm.

I don't have any specific complaints about these stats. They cover everything I can recall Mab doing and there's nothing there that seems off.

But still, I feel like maybe you're lowballing her. The PCs in EtA just took down a demon with 69 Refresh, so seeing Mab with only 54 seems underwhelming. She's comparatively slow, fragile, and inflexible...I get that this is her at her weakest, but she just seems too easy to kill.

I guess she just doesn't feel like a "plot device". She feels like something you can fight and kill with a little bit of planning.

Well, the thing is, you only get these stats if some circumstance has made her vulnerable, which is pretty rare.

Once that's happened... well, WK-Harry chased away He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab". Michael killed a Dragon, and he wasn't a super high refresh  character at that point at all (he probably has the same skills/refresh base as Harry up until Small Favor... so likely Submerged pre-series, since he walks on in GP when Harry's one major milestone above Submerged).

So a party of PCs all at least as powerful as pre-WK Harry ... doesn't seem all that out of scope.

The trick is getting the "vulnerability circumstance".

EDIT: Also, looking at those stats, that demon's refresh cost is so high because he's so spread out. He has 12 Refresh spent on an Immunity, 15 spent on spellcasting, 20 spent on shapeshifting (and the True Shapeshifting/Modular Abilities powerset is really expensive in terms of Refresh), 8 on his Aura...

If you don't have holy damage, you lose, but... a character with Soulfire and 20-25 Refresh points into evocation would probably flatten him (based on what narphoenix's character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" can do).

But still, it's not ideal. Any solution ideas?

Either raise the cost of Miraculous Power to -3, or make it (say) -2 for the first two [or three?] purchases, -3 for the next, -4 for the next...

---

I edited Aura of Influence into Mab's stats.

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, the thing is, you only get these stats if some circumstance has made her vulnerable, which is pretty rare.

Once that's happened... well, WK-Harry chased away He Who Walks Before who "could go toe to toe with Mab". Michael killed a Dragon, and he wasn't a super high refresh  character at that point at all (he probably has the same skills/refresh base as Harry up until Small Favor... so likely Submerged pre-series, since he walks on in GP when Harry's one major milestone above Submerged).

So a party of PCs all at least as powerful as pre-WK Harry ... doesn't seem all that out of scope.

They don't need to be that tough. 5 Feet In The Water PCs could kill her in one turn with no preparation and no FP, if everyone rolled 0 on everything and Mab had no FP/debt of her own. They'd have to start within attack range, and they'd all need exceptional initiative and iron weapons, but seriously...Feet In The Water.

EDIT: Also, looking at those stats, that demon's refresh cost is so high because he's so spread out. He has 12 Refresh spent on an Immunity, 15 spent on spellcasting, 20 spent on shapeshifting (and the True Shapeshifting/Modular Abilities powerset is really expensive in terms of Refresh), 8 on his Aura...

That's actually mostly-optimal. Once you have a really huge stack of Refresh, diversifying is a very good idea.

If you read the big fight in which he dies, you'll see that all those varied abilities do him much more good than 30 Refresh worth of Refinement would have.

I mean, he died, but...he would have died much more easily without all that stuff.

If you don't have holy damage, you lose, but... a character with Soulfire and 20-25 Refresh points into evocation would probably flatten him (based on what narphoenix's character in "Semi-Divine Comedy" can do).

Unlikely, unless the Soulfire wielder also had some other tricks up their sleeve. With access to Mythic Speed, Wings, and Evocation he can brutalize most characters and then just leave the fight. Three zones of flying movement is usually enough to get out of Evocation range, unless you're in an empty field.

And with Mythic Toughness + Supernatural Stoicism + Fantastic Discipline + Epic Athletics he can tank a lot of damage.

Mab can't do that kind of thing, because she's not so diversified. And she has a glaring Catch. Naturally she has her own strengths, but in a straight fight her vulnerable mode is significantly weaker than Matchitehew.

And he died.

She'd die too if she tried to fight serious opposition.

Like I said before there's nothing exactly wrong with those stats (though I'd houserule in Stoicism for her), but it just seems wrong to me how easily she could die.

Maybe let her retain at least a bit of Toughness when hit with iron?

Either raise the cost of Miraculous Power to -3, or make it (say) -2 for the first two [or three?] purchases, -3 for the next, -4 for the next...

I'd rather not increase the flat cost because the problem only arises at the really high levels. But the scaling cost suggestion has potential, I think.

Too tired to run the numbers right now though.

I edited Aura of Influence into Mab's stats.

Good call.

[PirateJack]

You should probably upgrade Mab's speed to Supernatural or Mythic. In the ballroom scene at the start of Cold Days, when one of the Red Cap's goons draws blood from Sarissa, Mab moves fast enough that she seems to teleport down on to the dance floor. Also, her demesne is the entirety of Winter, not just Arctis Tor, though that is the centre of her power. Perhaps there are a few scene aspects on Arctis Tor that would model her increased power there?

[vultur]

You should probably upgrade Mab's speed to Supernatural or Mythic. In the ballroom scene at the start of Cold Days, when one of the Red Cap's goons draws blood from Sarissa, Mab moves fast enough that she seems to teleport down on to the dance floor.

OK, yeah, probably Supernatural then. Black Court movement is also described that way and I think they have Supernatural Speed.

Also, her demesne is the entirety of Winter, not just Arctis Tor, though that is the centre of her power. Perhaps there are a few scene aspects on Arctis Tor that would model her increased power there?

I've been playing around with a power/expansion to Demesne that would give her a "core demesne" and then an "expanded demesne".

[vultur]

They don't need to be that tough. 5 Feet In The Water PCs could kill her in one turn with no preparation and no FP, if everyone rolled 0 on everything and Mab had no FP/debt of her own. They'd have to start within attack range, and they'd all need exceptional initiative and iron weapons, but seriously...Feet In The Water.

Possibly in an ideal situation, but I doubt an actual party with a range of niches could do that at that level. They'd have to have Inhuman Speed and Good+ Alertness to act before Mab, and Great skill with an iron weapon...  you're not going to get 5 FitW chars who all have that.

And as soon as Mab acts (Epic initiative) she does a 12 shift block + 2 shifts in persistence, survives one round of attacks, and then uses a zone wide Weapon:12 control 14 attack.

EDIT: And getting into a situation where that could work is really the bigger challenge.

Still, you have a very good point.

Supernatural Speed would help her quite a bit, as would giving her a higher Athletics.


What would help even more is a defensive Enchanted Item... does Miracles allow for that? If not, that's actually a (fairly significant) disadvantage relative to regular spellcasting. So it should allow it, IMO. The lack of foci makes it tricky though... maybe just "you have 4 enchanted item slots, and can buy more with Refinement; these slots can't be used for focus items".

However ... there's a comment by Jim about how Murphy or Butters could kill Mab under ideal circumstances, very unlikely, but they'd have a better chance than the Erlking, who would have zero chance. So giving her really awesome defenses before she throws a Miracles block may not be right. I could just Compel her not to use the enchanted item, but if it would get her killed that seems a bit beyond what a Compel can fairly do (though for an NPC it matters a lot less).

That's actually mostly-optimal. Once you have a really huge stack of Refresh, diversifying is a very good idea.

Yeah, once you hit the cap, but wouldn't optimizing his spellcasting up to his Lore-cap on Refinement be more powerful than some of the modular abilities/shapeshifting?

He has a +2 offensive power and a +2 offensive control focus item, and his Refinement evocation bonus in his best element is +3 control/+2 power, which with his 7 Conviction and 6 Discipline, means he's casting Control 11/Power 11, offensively, in his best element and with Hellfire. He could go up to Control 15/Power 15 or Control 18/Power 12 with a +6/+5 refinement bonuses and a +3/+3 (or +6) focus item.

Not that I'm saying he SHOULD be maximally optimized... he should be statted however makes a good challenge for your characters, of course. But I think such a build would indeed be more powerful.

If you read the big fight in which he dies, you'll see that all those varied abilities do him much more good than 30 Refresh worth of Refinement would have.

I mean, he died, but...he would have died much more easily without all that stuff.

Could you link to that specific part of the intimidatingly huge IC thread?

Unlikely, unless the Soulfire wielder also had some other tricks up their sleeve. With access to Mythic Speed, Wings, and Evocation he can brutalize most characters and then just leave the fight. Three zones of flying movement is usually enough to get out of Evocation range, unless you're in an empty field.

A good point.

(though I'd houserule in Stoicism for her),

I'd have put it in if I wrote stats for "public consumption" assuming it exists. Stoicism/Mental Immunity powers do exist in "Semi-Divine Comedy", but I don't think of those powers' existence as a "standard assumption".

Maybe let her retain at least a bit of Toughness when hit with iron?

Maybe so.

But the scaling cost suggestion has potential, I think.

Yeah, I think it is better. Probably should scale pretty harshly.. Mab has six purchases and she's as good at everything magical as Odin is at his best specialties, for 2/3 the refresh cost into magic.


EDIT: removed extra quotes, duplicated comment about Matchitehew's spellcasting

[Sanctaphrax]

Possibly in an ideal situation, but

...

Still, you have a very good point.

Supernatural Speed would help her quite a bit, as would giving her a higher Athletics.

Yeah, it's a spherical cow example. Just making a point, it's not something that'd actually happen.

I'd probably go for Mythic Speed. Maybe she doesn't necessarily need it, but it'd make her tougher in a narratively-appropriate way.

What would help even more is a defensive Enchanted Item... does Miracles allow for that? If not, that's actually a (fairly significant) disadvantage relative to regular spellcasting. So it should allow it, IMO. The lack of foci makes it tricky though... maybe just "you have 4 enchanted item slots, and can buy more with Refinement; these slots can't be used for focus items".

It doesn't allow items. They're a bit out of theme.

Maybe an upgrade Power could allow them?

It's not actually strictly better than spellcasting. It's powerful, but it's also narrow. My idea is that some gods would have both Miracles and some level of Thaumaturgy.

However ... there's a comment by Jim about how Murphy or Butters could kill Mab under ideal circumstances, very unlikely, but they'd have a better chance than the Erlking, who would have zero chance. So giving her really awesome defenses before she throws a Miracles block may not be right. I could just Compel her not to use the enchanted item, but if it would get her killed that seems a bit beyond what a Compel can fairly do (though for an NPC it matters a lot less).

I think the fact that mortals can collect massive FP stacks and free-will-less beings like the Erlking generally can't covers for that well enough.

Yeah, once you hit the cap, but wouldn't optimizing his spellcasting up to his Lore-cap on Refinement be more powerful than some of the modular abilities/shapeshifting?

He has a +2 offensive power and a +2 offensive control focus item, and his Refinement evocation bonus in his best element is +3 control/+2 power, which with his 7 Conviction and 6 Discipline, means he's casting Control 11/Power 11, offensively, in his best element and with Hellfire. He could go up to Control 15/Power 15 or Control 18/Power 12 with a +6/+5 refinement bonuses and a +3/+3 (or +6) focus item.

Not that I'm saying he SHOULD be maximally optimized... he should be statted however makes a good challenge for your characters, of course. But I think such a build would indeed be more powerful.

He'd be well served by a few more offensive Refinements. Maybe four more. But going all-in on spellcasting would have made him weaker.

And the shapeshifting isn't what I'd choose to get rid of if I was trying to make him more efficient. I'd start with Unholy Touch and the Thaumaturgy Refinements.

Could you link to that specific part of the intimidatingly huge IC thread?

Sure.

It's a long scene and Matchitehew takes a little while to show up, but if you keep reading you'll see why it's good for him to have Immunity, shapeshifting, and a Dangerous Aura.

In retrospect, I introduced too many NPCs that scene. I wanted the players to feel like they were up against an army, but keeping track of all those mooks was a pain in the neck.

I'd have put it in if I wrote stats for "public consumption" assuming it exists. Stoicism/Mental Immunity powers do exist in "Semi-Divine Comedy", but I don't think of those powers' existence as a "standard assumption".

Makes sense.

Yeah, I think it is better. Probably should scale pretty harshly.. Mab has six purchases and she's as good at everything magical as Odin is at his best specialties, for 2/3 the refresh cost into magic.

Well, she can only cast spells that fit her domain. Miracles is a bit narrow, after all.

Maybe add 1 to the cost for every 3 purchases, or 1 for every 2 if that seems too mild.

[vultur]

OK, I didn't catch that Miracles was limited to the being's domain. With that and the lack of items, OK, it's clearly not just "spellcasting but better", it does have its own limitations.

With that, I think increasing the cost to -3 for the fourth through sixth purchase, -4 for the seventh through ninth, etc. is good.

--

Yeah, FP is almost certainly the representation in-game of that "mortal advantage"...  very good point.